I&#39;m reluctant to enter this particular debate, but I do think that the following two passages show Milton&#39;s awareness of the problem that a paradisal Eve poses to the fallen reader ~ a problem that he&#39;s most interested in developing.  Whether or not he intended to make his Eve sexually arousing, he certainly seems aware that this might be a consequence of his portrayal!<div>

<br></div><div>Naturally, would love to hear your respective thoughts.</div><div><br></div><div>BP</div><div><br></div><div>(In the second passage, note esp. the behavior of the plants, who expect to receive from Eve precisely the physical care that she is at present not receiving from her husband.) </div>

<div><br></div><div><br></div><div>From Book V:</div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 1ex; ">

<span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: palatino, times, serif; font-size: 16px; ">Mean while at Table <span class="mi" style="font-style: italic; ">Eve</span><br><a href="http://www.dartmouth.edu/~milton/reading_room/pl/book_5/notes.shtml#ministerd" target="notes" style="color: purple; background-color: white; "><span class="varspell" title="Ministered" style="background-color: white; ">Ministerd</span> naked</a>, and <span class="varspell" title="their" style="background-color: white; ">thir</span> flowing cups<br>

With pleasant liquors <a href="http://www.dartmouth.edu/~milton/reading_room/pl/book_5/notes.shtml#crowned" target="notes" style="color: purple; background-color: white; "><span class="varspell" title="crowned" style="background-color: white; ">crown&#39;d</span></a>: O innocence<span class="line" id="line445"> [ 445 ]</span><br>

Deserving Paradise! if <a name="angellust">ever</a>, then,<br>Then had <a href="http://www.dartmouth.edu/~milton/reading_room/pl/book_5/notes.shtml#sons_of_god" target="notes" style="color: purple; background-color: white; ">the Sons of God</a> excuse to have <span class="varspell" title="been" style="background-color: white; ">bin</span><br>

<span class="varspell" title="Enamored" style="background-color: white; ">Enamour&#39;d</span> at that sight; but in those hearts<br>Love unlibidinous <span class="varspell" title="reigned" style="background-color: white; ">reign&#39;d</span>, nor <span class="varspell" title="jealousy" style="background-color: white; ">jealousie</span><br>

Was understood, the <span class="varspell" title="injured" style="background-color: white; ">injur&#39;d</span> <span class="varspell" title="Lover&#39;s" style="background-color: white; ">Lovers</span> Hell.</span></blockquote>

<div><br></div><div><br></div><div>From Book VIII:<br><div><br></div><div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 1ex; ">

<span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: palatino, times, serif; font-size: 16px; ">So spake our Sire, and by his <span class="varspell" title="countenance" style="background-color: white; ">count&#39;nance</span> <span class="varspell" title="seemed" style="background-color: white; ">seemd</span><br>

<span class="varspell" title="Entering" style="background-color: white; ">Entring</span> on studious thoughts abstruse, which <span class="mi" style="font-style: italic; ">Eve</span><span class="line" id="line40"> [ 40 ]</span><br>

<span class="varspell" title="Perceiving" style="background-color: white; ">Perceaving</span> where <a href="http://www.dartmouth.edu/~milton/reading_room/pl/book_8/notes.shtml#retird" target="notes" style="color: purple; background-color: white; ">she sat <span class="varspell" title="retired" style="background-color: white; ">retir&#39;d</span></a> in sight,<br>

With lowliness Majestic from her seat,<br>And Grace <a href="http://www.dartmouth.edu/~milton/reading_room/pl/book_8/notes.shtml#won" target="notes" style="color: purple; background-color: white; ">that won who saw</a> to wish her stay,<br>

Rose, and went forth among her Fruits and <span class="varspell" title="Flowers" style="background-color: white; ">Flours</span>,<br>To visit how they <span class="varspell" title="propsered" style="background-color: white; ">prosper&#39;d</span>, bud and bloom,<span class="line" id="line45"> [ 45 ]</span><br>

Her <span class="varspell" title="Nursery" style="background-color: white; ">Nurserie</span>; they at her coming sprung<br>And <span class="varspell" title="touched" style="background-color: white; ">toucht</span> by her fair tendance gladlier grew.<br>

Yet went she not, as not with such <a name="eveleaves">discourse</a><br>Delighted, or not capable her <span class="varspell" title="ear" style="background-color: white; ">eare</span><br>Of what was high: such pleasure she <span class="varspell" title="reserved" style="background-color: white; ">reserv&#39;d</span>,<span class="line" id="line50"> [ 50 ]</span><br>

<span class="mi" style="font-style: italic; ">Adam</span> relating, she sole Auditress;<br>Her <a name="caresses">Husband</a> the Relater she <span class="varspell" title="preferred" style="background-color: white; ">preferr&#39;d</span><br>

Before the Angel, and of him to ask<br>Chose rather: <span class="varspell" title="he" style="background-color: white; ">hee</span>, she knew would intermix<br>Grateful digressions, and solve high dispute<span class="line" id="line55"> [ 55 ]</span><br>

With <a href="http://www.dartmouth.edu/~milton/reading_room/pl/book_8/notes.shtml#conjugal" target="notes" name="conjugal" style="color: purple; background-color: white; ">conjugal Caresses</a>, from his Lip<br>Not Words alone <span class="varspell" title="pleased" style="background-color: white; ">pleas&#39;d</span> her. O when meet now<br>

Such pairs, in Love and mutual <span class="varspell" title="Honor" style="background-color: white; ">Honour</span> <span class="varspell" title="joined" style="background-color: white; ">joyn&#39;d</span>?<br>With Goddess-like <span class="varspell" title="demeanor" style="background-color: white; ">demeanour</span> forth she went;<br>

Not unattended, for on her as Queen<span class="line" id="line60"> [ 60 ]</span><br>A <a href="http://www.dartmouth.edu/~milton/reading_room/pl/book_8/notes.shtml#line61" target="notes" style="color: purple; background-color: white; ">pomp</a> of winning <a name="graces">Graces</a> waited still,<br>

And from about her shot Darts of desire<br>Into all Eyes to <a href="http://www.dartmouth.edu/~milton/reading_room/pl/book_8/notes.shtml#wishher" target="notes" style="color: purple; background-color: white; ">wish her still in sight</a>.</span></blockquote>

<div><br></div><div style="text-align: left;"> </div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 1:59 PM, James Rovira <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:jamesrovira@gmail.com">jamesrovira@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">I believe you when you say that at least you haven&#39;t meant to change<br>
your position, Richard.<br>
<br>
You&#39;re missing an important qualification of my definition of<br>
pornography -- it is intended &quot;primarily&quot; if not &quot;only&quot; to provide<br>
&quot;sexual stimulation.&quot;<br>
<br>
Do you really think Milton consciously intended his audience to be<br>
sexually aroused by parts of PL?  I&#39;m not saying that no one can be<br>
aroused by parts of PL.  The question here is about Milton&#39;s intent.<br>
I think we need to clearly think about what we mean when we&#39;re making<br>
claims about intentionality, however.  These are claims about the<br>
author, not about possible audience responses.<br>
<br>
Have you ever seen the film The Last Word?  Ray Romano&#39;s character has<br>
some funny dialog about the things that arouse him at times and why.<br>
No one would attribute his spontaneous, uncontrolled state of arousal<br>
in the produce aisle to the nature of the objects themselves.  He<br>
didn&#39;t, anyway.<br>
<br>
Jim R<br>
<div class="im"><br>
On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 4:45 PM, richard strier &lt;<a href="mailto:rastrier@uchicago.edu">rastrier@uchicago.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; 1) I do not think I&#39;ve changed my position at all.  Certainly have not meant to.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; If pornography is defined as &quot;representations that intend to cause erotic<br>
&gt; arousal&quot; (in some part of their audience), I am happy to reiterate the claim that<br>
&gt; PL and many other great works of art are (at least in parts) pornographic.<br>
<br>
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