[Milton-L] FW: Credited Wiki

Salwa skhoddam at cox.net
Sat Nov 4 17:34:38 EDT 2017


 

 

From: Salwa [mailto:skhoddam at cox.net] 
Sent: Saturday, November 4, 2017 12:13 PM
To: 'John Milton Discussion List' <milton-l at richmond.edu>
Subject: RE: [Milton-L] Credited Wiki

 

Dear James,

I have enjoyed reading your postings very much and am grateful for the
significant knowledge and experience that you share with us.

However, I am of the opinion that a discussion devolves when using cuss
words or when focusing mostly on imagery (Lindell) because the line of
discourse stops and emotion (position or negative) takes over in such a
situation. That was my main point.

 

Regarding imagery, I meant to say that because it appeals to our pathos it
can stop any discourse when it is the center of a work, rather than an aid
to logos (which we can argue with. Marketing tactics are based on images
because they stimulate our senses and instincts and bypass our cognitive
processes. Lindall begins with imagery and then attempts to find support for
it later. I find that method subversive.

 

I hate to see Milton (that you and I and the rest of the members of this
list love) dragged into this swarm of "undigested lump" of ignorance
(Lindall). Where Milton used his images in books 11 and 12 as support for
his vision of the future, laid out before us in the whole work (we can
debate this),  I see only menacing imagery in Lindall's work which gives me
the creeps (there, I used an image because I cannot proceed with logical
analysis of something illogical and monstrous). Granted, something monstrous
to me may be of immense aesthetic value to others.

Respectfully,

Salwa 

 

Salwa Khoddam, PhD.

Professor of English, Emerita

Oklahoma City University

 

From: milton-l-bounces at richmond.edu <mailto:milton-l-bounces at richmond.edu>
[mailto:milton-l-bounces at richmond.edu] On Behalf Of Watt, James
Sent: Friday, November 3, 2017 9:53 PM
To: John Milton Discussion List <milton-l at richmond.edu
<mailto:milton-l at richmond.edu> >
Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Credited Wiki

 

Dear Professor Khoddam:

 

I am sorry if my posting appeared to be disrespectful towards the list or
yourself. As I tried to be light-hearted about the issue of how we respond
to persons whose language (and images) whose intent or content we find
offensive by suggesting that we attempt to spell out our disagreement in the
form of an argument against the language or image that can clarify our
grounds for objection and, when that fails to be heard or responded to, that
we simply stop the conversation. And I used deliberately crude language for
comic effect. Alas, humor, like belief, is always as likely to be
interpreted as malicious or ignorant as it is to be understood.  What can I
say? My joke fell flat and hurt your feelings. And I'm sorry about that. 

 

Your question about arguing with images was, to me, confusing. I think most
of literary criticism consists in arguments about, for and against, images
pretty much all the time. For example the argument that Books Eleven &
Twelve of P.L. are, in the famous words of one critic, "an undigested lump
of futurity" is proposed by its adherents as an aesthetic failure on
Milton's part. The argument against it is that it is a misperception of the
poet's entire project. Or, again, take Rodin's famous sculpture of Balzac;
some saw it as an insult against the writer, others as a brilliant
revelation of his achievement. How do we decide --or decide not to decide--
other than by argument?

 

I love the Milton list as do you. Can we agree on that?

 

Jim Watt

  _____  

From: milton-l-bounces at richmond.edu <mailto:milton-l-bounces at richmond.edu>
<milton-l-bounces at richmond.edu <mailto:milton-l-bounces at richmond.edu> > on
behalf of Cox, Carrol <cbcox at ilstu.edu <mailto:cbcox at ilstu.edu> >
Sent: Friday, November 3, 2017 6:13:24 PM
To: John Milton Discussion List
Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Credited Wiki 

 

Salwa Friday, November 03, 2017 5:32 PM writes: "With all due respect,
though your (Jim W) posting lacks respect, you can't argue against an image,
can you? Salwa

-------

I see no lack of respect for the list in Jim's post. Moreover, Respect for P
will often (perhaps usually) imply disrespect for Q. And incidentally, the
Indiana KKK was organized primarily in opposition to Catholicism. I remember
as a child a relative referring to a march of some 10,000  KKK supporters in
South Bend (i.e. in the location of a major Catholic University). There
were, in addition, some fairly grisly lynchings in that state. 

I have been on two quite excellent discussion lists that were destroyed by
the tolerance extended to a troll. The First Amendment refers to the powers
of Congress & does not guarantee a platform to anyone.

I myself during my yeas on this post never expressed my political views in
any aggressive way. Why disrupt a list for no other purpose than mere
self-expression? Political "converts" are not apt to be recruited on a
literary list. What does Mr. Lindall expect to gain with his nonsense?

Carrol (Red as a Baboon's ass*) Cox

[*Plagiarized from a Counterpunch writer.]

From: milton-l-bounces at richmond.edu <mailto:milton-l-bounces at richmond.edu>
[mailto:milton-l-bounces at richmond.edu] On Behalf Of Watt, James
Sent: Friday, November 3, 2017 4:39 PM
To: John Milton Discussion List <milton-l at richmond.edu
<mailto:milton-l at richmond.edu> >
Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Credited Wiki

 

My friends: Mr. Lindall is obviously teasing us all. And remember 'de
gustibus.' A friend sent me a note about the students at Indiana University
wishing to 'censor' a Grant Wood painting which includes --in a negative
light-- some people dressed in KKK robes. The painting in question reflects
a moment in Indiana history when the influence of the KKK in state
government was exposed and the state was embarassed enough to take action
against it. Of course, there are still KKK chapters in Indiana and, for all
I know, in every state in the union. But there are also persons who believe
in alien abduction and Satanic rituals being performed in Pizza Parlors in
Washington D.C. ... or was that child sex slaves?  I remember when Butler
University, back I think in the late seventies? decided to circulate and
publish student evaluations. I taught a sophomore, non-major course called
"The Changing Image of Man" which included a Gilgamesh version, Matthew's
Gospel from the N.T., Voltaire!
 's Candide, ... you get the picture. I think the final text was Flaubert's
'Un Cour Simple' (in translation). Well, three or four students reported
that all we ever talked about in the course was sex and violence and they
hated the course and me. The following semester, and you're not surprised to
read it, I know, my enrollment in that class tripled and we had to find a
bigger classroom. Proof again that there's no such thing as bad publicity.

 

I know things are harder now for those of you teaching, what with the notion
that to find another's language or dress or physical appearance or politics
or religion, ad infinitum must not be judged no matter what extent the
person has gone to in order to attract judgement (hello Mr. Lindall) for
fear of being accused of insensitivity and cultural oppression.  I remember,
for instance, various groups on campus used to announce days when people
should wear certain colors to support them and their cause. I'm sure that
wouldn't work now because other groups would find ways to mock those trying
to appear sympathetic to the group sponsoring the color. If I were teaching
Milton or Blake or Hemingway or Faulkner or Homer or Aristophanes or
Rabelais or Voltaire or Twain or Hawthorne or Melville or Donne or Dylan
Thomas these days I believe I would post the following notice on my door:

 

Dr. Watt will almost certainly offend students' religious, political,
aesthetic, digestive, and emotional beliefs, attitudes, affiliations and
affections on a regular basis as the study of literature involves the
complete range of human behaviour and thought across a span from the
beginnings of literacy around 2100 B.C.E. with the Epic of Gilgamesh to the
most recent novels, short stories, poems, plays and film scripts. Inside
that relatively narrow space (five or six thousand years) of homo sapiens'
existence on the planet (which is currently estimated at around 200,000
years ) just about everything said or done has been 'offensive' to some
other members of the species and censorship is as old as obscenity and
blasphemy. 

 

Indeed, one man's deeply held beliefs are almost certainly another man's
heresy.  if you want to study medicine, you must study disease as well as
health --and if you want to study literature you must study curses as well
as blessings and evil deeds as well as heroic ones. I cannot, therefore,
promise you that what you read will not offend as much as delight you,
knowing that what delights one of you is bound to offend another. 

 

Nor can I claim that what I think about what we study will not offend as
many as it pleases. It isn't my job to prevent your being offended; it's to
encourage you to think for yourself and let those offended by your
conclusions find a way to demonstrate the error[s] in your reasoning -- or
shut the fuck up. 

 

I loathe those of every stripe pursuing perfection and passionately hope one
day they find it choking them to death.

 

fondly yours, unless you prefer my contempt,

 

jim watt 

________________________________

From: milton-l-bounces at richmond.edu <mailto:milton-l-bounces at richmond.edu>
<milton-l-bounces at richmond.edu <mailto:milton-l-bounces at richmond.edu> > on
behalf of Hannibal Hamlin <hamlin.hannibal at gmail.com
<mailto:hamlin.hannibal at gmail.com> >
Sent: Friday, November 3, 2017 11:46:30 AM
To: John Milton Discussion List
Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Credited Wiki 

 

I agree with Louis that the text only confirms the impression that the
painting is racist and reflects deep confusion about race in America as well
as about Paradise Lost. It may be honest and perhaps even on some level
well-intentioned, but it is misguided and disturbing (and not in a good
way). 

 

Hannibal

 

 

 

On Fri, Nov 3, 2017 at 1:31 PM, Shoulson, Jeffrey
<jeffrey.shoulson at uconn.edu <mailto:jeffrey.shoulson at uconn.edu> > wrote:

        It's truly ghastly.  

         

         

        _____________________________________________________
        Jeffrey Shoulson, Ph.D.

        Interim Vice Provost for Interdisciplinary Initiatives
        Doris and Simon Konover Chair in Judaic Studies
        Professor of Literatures, Cultures, and Languages

        University of Connecticut

        352 Mansfield Road, Unit 1086

        Storrs, CT 06268-1086

         

        (o) 860.486.6115 <tel:(860)%20486-6115> 

        (m) 305.742.6973 <tel:(305)%20742-6973> 

        (f) 860.486.6379 <tel:(860)%20486-6379> 

         

                On Nov 3, 2017, at 1:22 PM, Margaret Thickstun
<mthickst at hamilton.edu <mailto:mthickst at hamilton.edu> > wrote:

                 

                We may all have looked, but I would have to agree with Salwa
about this portrait. It is appalling. 

                 

                On Fri, Nov 3, 2017 at 12:53 PM, Salwa <skhoddam at cox.net
<mailto:skhoddam at cox.net> > wrote:

                        Dear All,

                        Maybe I'm too sensitive, or maybe I misinterpreted
it, but I'm insulted by Terrance Lindall's Milton Portrait.

                        I do wish that such postings do not find their way
into our Milton Discussion List. I do appreciate it though that the Wiki
source was credited.

                        Salwa

                         

                        Salwa Khoddam, PhD.

                        Professor of English, Emerita

                        Oklahoma City University

                         

                        From: milton-l-bounces at richmond.edu
<mailto:milton-l-bounces at richmond.edu>
[mailto:milton-l-bounces at richmond.edu] On Behalf Of Terrance Lindall
                        Sent: Friday, November 3, 2017 11:37 AM
                        To: John Milton Discussion List
<milton-l at lists.richmond.edu <mailto:milton-l at lists.richmond.edu> >
                        Subject: [Milton-L] Credited Wiki

                         

                        Dear Guys: 
                        
                        I credited the Wiki source on my Wordpress site and
WIX Site. Thanks for pointing out my sloppiness. At the glorious age of 73
one gets a bit lazy. 
                        
                        I used to be a good scholar, original research,
solid reasoning and meticulous crediting. Strong suit was logic. My Milton
professor said in praise on my final exam that I still have in my archives,
"Milton would have reasoned thus!" Graduated Magna Cum Laude with double
majors and a double minor. 
                        
                        I see Wordpress got over 90 views on that one day.
Thanks for looking. 

                        Have you seen my latest Milton Portrait:

                        
 
https://issuu.com/lindall/docs/satan_as_a_black_man_reduced

                        
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                -- 

                Margaret Thickstun

                Jane Watson Irwin Professor of Literature

                Chair, Literature and Creative Writing 

                Hamilton College

                198 College Hill Road

                Clinton, NY 13323

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-- 

Hannibal Hamlin
Professor of English
The Ohio State University

Author of The Bible in Shakespeare, now available through all good
bookshops, or direct from Oxford University Press at
http://ukcatalogue.oup.com/product/9780199677610.do

164 Annie & John Glenn Ave., 421 Denney Hall Columbus, OH 43210-1340
hamlin.22 at osu.edu/ <mailto:hamlin.22 at osu.edu/>  hamlin.hannibal at gmail.com
<mailto:hamlin.hannibal at gmail.com> 


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