[Milton-L] Milton-L Digest, Vol 132, Issue 2

Terrance Lindall tlindall at gmail.com
Thu Nov 2 17:55:50 EDT 2017


Points well taken guys! Best, Terrance

On Thu, Nov 2, 2017 at 5:01 PM, <milton-l-request at richmond.edu> wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Sure... (Terrance Lindall)
>    2. Re: Sure... (Nancy Charlton)
>    3. Re: Sure... (Schwartz, Louis)
>    4. Re: Sure... (Nancy Charlton)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2017 13:23:35 -0400
> From: Terrance Lindall <tlindall at gmail.com>
> To: milton-l at richmond.edu
> Subject: [Milton-L] Sure...
> Message-ID:
>         <CAPXDMnm7rMk5fng7yeRqQLTeDKrUqoUKt4g-5TioGUD7NZ7bAA at mail.
> gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Logic is not the issue. You would not understand that. It is a matter of
> correct use of language.
>
> Explanation maybe:
>
> I do use Wiki a lot. Maybe that's "appropriation" as per my post.  So sue
> me! It is not copyrighted. In some cases I wrote the initial articles, such
> as the one for Glamis Castle or Dr. Arno or Robert Wickenheiser on Wiki.
> All I am doing here on this list is providing information on a subject to
> you and not publishing for reputation or commercial purposes like you. You
> are the ones we have to watch more carefully. Your reputation rises and
> falls on what you pump out, so better not do anything that is not ENTIRELY
> ORIGINAL.
>
> History will judge all of us. I do not need to make money, and I have great
> collections. I am happy with that.
>
> All of you have appropriated the English language in some fashion. Every
> time you use a word or expression it is an act of appropriation. When you
> quote Milton you are appropriating his words for your perceived benefit. So
> stop quoting him or writing about him. You are appropriating his reputation
> for your benefit...a sin for sure.
>
>  Today, if you are a white person and try to open a Taco restaurant and are
> not Mexican you are attacked for appropriating culture (that was in the
> news). White kids cannot go out on Halloween in an ethnic costume without
> worrying about being criticized for appropriating culture. Contrarily, the
> English LOVE to have their language appropriated. Ain't that curious? Not
> really. World rule requires a common language. It may be Chinese when the
> Progressives destroy the West.
>
> >From the point of view of the Liberal Progressive Stalinist,  if you are
> teaching English or Milton and are not directly descended from the English,
> you should be fired. You are appropriating the cultural asset of the
> English. If you are an honorable Progressive, PLEASE STOP TEACHING IT. I
> think that  a lot of you might do just as well teaching Karl Marx or the
> virtues of Stalin. Or maybe do a class on "The Problem of Lindallism." I
> can provide the study material.
>
> "All stripes and colors!" Is that a virtue of your Progressive "diversity?"
> I do not necessarily believe that diversity is a virtue. Diversity of
> values leads to conflict. Look around the world...conflict! Seeing is
> believing, no logic required. Even Plato knew that Democracies will
> eventually tear themselves apart. But fortunately we do not have a pure
> democracy or we would have "perished from the earth" long ago. Oh my God, I
> stole from Lincoln now! Damn me damn me!
>
> Love your hatred of me. Keep it up.
>
> I think you should put in a request to bounce me from the list for
> plagiarism of appropriating Wiki!
>
> Best. Terrance
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2017 11:46:45 -0700
> From: Nancy Charlton <charltonwordorder1 at gmail.com>
> To: John Milton Discussion List <milton-l at richmond.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Sure...
> Message-ID:
>         <CAGg6sLz6VK16mGub0XtyDM8rgFzY=1jZBwbHRZEmNNymkhf62A at mail.
> gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> It seems to me that this brouhaha might have been avoided by the simple
> courtesy of following the rudiments of documentation  and attribution most
> of us learned in English 102, and later in Intro to Grad Study. Terrance
> could have indicated Wikipedia as his source, and his authorship would not
> have been taken as vainglorious self-seeking.
>
> Nancy harlton
>
> On Thu, Nov 2, 2017 at 10:23 AM, Terrance Lindall <tlindall at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Logic is not the issue. You would not understand that. It is a matter of
> > correct use of language.
> >
> > Explanation maybe:
> >
> > I do use Wiki a lot. Maybe that's "appropriation" as per my post.  So sue
> > me! It is not copyrighted. In some cases I wrote the initial articles,
> such
> > as the one for Glamis Castle or Dr. Arno or Robert Wickenheiser on Wiki.
> > All I am doing here on this list is providing information on a subject to
> > you and not publishing for reputation or commercial purposes like you.
> You
> > are the ones we have to watch more carefully. Your reputation rises and
> > falls on what you pump out, so better not do anything that is not
> ENTIRELY
> > ORIGINAL.
> >
> > History will judge all of us. I do not need to make money, and I have
> > great collections. I am happy with that.
> >
> > All of you have appropriated the English language in some fashion. Every
> > time you use a word or expression it is an act of appropriation. When you
> > quote Milton you are appropriating his words for your perceived benefit.
> So
> > stop quoting him or writing about him. You are appropriating his
> reputation
> > for your benefit...a sin for sure.
> >
> >  Today, if you are a white person and try to open a Taco restaurant and
> > are not Mexican you are attacked for appropriating culture (that was in
> the
> > news). White kids cannot go out on Halloween in an ethnic costume without
> > worrying about being criticized for appropriating culture. Contrarily,
> the
> > English LOVE to have their language appropriated. Ain't that curious? Not
> > really. World rule requires a common language. It may be Chinese when the
> > Progressives destroy the West.
> >
> > From the point of view of the Liberal Progressive Stalinist,  if you are
> > teaching English or Milton and are not directly descended from the
> English,
> > you should be fired. You are appropriating the cultural asset of the
> > English. If you are an honorable Progressive, PLEASE STOP TEACHING IT. I
> > think that  a lot of you might do just as well teaching Karl Marx or the
> > virtues of Stalin. Or maybe do a class on "The Problem of Lindallism." I
> > can provide the study material.
> >
> > "All stripes and colors!" Is that a virtue of your Progressive
> > "diversity?" I do not necessarily believe that diversity is a virtue.
> > Diversity of values leads to conflict. Look around the world...conflict!
> > Seeing is believing, no logic required. Even Plato knew that Democracies
> > will eventually tear themselves apart. But fortunately we do not have a
> > pure democracy or we would have "perished from the earth" long ago. Oh my
> > God, I stole from Lincoln now! Damn me damn me!
> >
> > Love your hatred of me. Keep it up.
> >
> > I think you should put in a request to bounce me from the list for
> > plagiarism of appropriating Wiki!
> >
> > Best. Terrance
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Milton-L mailing list
> > Milton-L at richmond.edu
> > Manage your list membership and access list archives at
> > https://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l
> >
> > Milton-L web site: http://johnmilton.org/
> >
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2017 20:43:23 +0000
> From: "Schwartz, Louis" <lschwart at richmond.edu>
> To: John Milton Discussion List <milton-l at richmond.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Sure...
> Message-ID: <1509655403227.67212 at richmond.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Since it falls to me from time to time to moderate these discussions, let
> me say a few things:
>
>
> 1) Brendan's complaint about attributions is entirely legitimate in the
> context of an academic discussion list, and Nancy is correct that the
> problem would not have arisen if Terrance had used even a simple and
> informal method of attribution (for example, "as the Wikipedia article on
> .... says, ....").
>
>
> 2) I urge people to keep in mind that the spectrum of political opinions
> on this list is more varied than one might assume.  Please remember that
> before painting with any broad brushes.
>
>
> 3) Political matters, when they are related in one way or another to
> Milton (and canonicity and the problems surrounding cultural appropriation
> can be directly relevant), are perfectly legitimate subjects for discussion
> here, and there's nothing wrong with even vehement disagreement, but I urge
> Terrance and others to avoid using aggressively tendentious and even
> insulting labels when characterizing the positions of those with whom they
> disagree.  It's only likely to lead to more name-calling and a degeneration
> of the discussion to the point at which  it becomes nothing but a battle of
> caricatures.  Fine for a Facebook feed, but not here.
>
>
> Best to all,
>
>
> Louis
>
>
> ======================
> Louis Schwartz
> Professor of English
> Chair, Department of English
> University of Richmond
> Richmond, VA  23173
> (804) 289-8315
> lschwart at richmond.edu
> ________________________________
> From: milton-l-bounces at richmond.edu <milton-l-bounces at richmond.edu> on
> behalf of Nancy Charlton <charltonwordorder1 at gmail.com>
> Sent: Thursday, November 2, 2017 2:46 PM
> To: John Milton Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Sure...
>
> It seems to me that this brouhaha might have been avoided by the simple
> courtesy of following the rudiments of documentation  and attribution most
> of us learned in English 102, and later in Intro to Grad Study. Terrance
> could have indicated Wikipedia as his source, and his authorship would not
> have been taken as vainglorious self-seeking.
>
> Nancy harlton
>
> On Thu, Nov 2, 2017 at 10:23 AM, Terrance Lindall <tlindall at gmail.com
> <mailto:tlindall at gmail.com>> wrote:
> Logic is not the issue. You would not understand that. It is a matter of
> correct use of language.
>
> Explanation maybe:
>
> I do use Wiki a lot. Maybe that's "appropriation" as per my post.  So sue
> me! It is not copyrighted. In some cases I wrote the initial articles, such
> as the one for Glamis Castle or Dr. Arno or Robert Wickenheiser on Wiki.
> All I am doing here on this list is providing information on a subject to
> you and not publishing for reputation or commercial purposes like you. You
> are the ones we have to watch more carefully. Your reputation rises and
> falls on what you pump out, so better not do anything that is not ENTIRELY
> ORIGINAL.
>
> History will judge all of us. I do not need to make money, and I have
> great collections. I am happy with that.
>
> All of you have appropriated the English language in some fashion. Every
> time you use a word or expression it is an act of appropriation. When you
> quote Milton you are appropriating his words for your perceived benefit. So
> stop quoting him or writing about him. You are appropriating his reputation
> for your benefit...a sin for sure.
>
>  Today, if you are a white person and try to open a Taco restaurant and
> are not Mexican you are attacked for appropriating culture (that was in the
> news). White kids cannot go out on Halloween in an ethnic costume without
> worrying about being criticized for appropriating culture. Contrarily, the
> English LOVE to have their language appropriated. Ain't that curious? Not
> really. World rule requires a common language. It may be Chinese when the
> Progressives destroy the West.
>
> >From the point of view of the Liberal Progressive Stalinist,  if you are
> teaching English or Milton and are not directly descended from the English,
> you should be fired. You are appropriating the cultural asset of the
> English. If you are an honorable Progressive, PLEASE STOP TEACHING IT. I
> think that  a lot of you might do just as well teaching Karl Marx or the
> virtues of Stalin. Or maybe do a class on "The Problem of Lindallism." I
> can provide the study material.
>
> "All stripes and colors!" Is that a virtue of your Progressive
> "diversity?" I do not necessarily believe that diversity is a virtue.
> Diversity of values leads to conflict. Look around the world...conflict!
> Seeing is believing, no logic required. Even Plato knew that Democracies
> will eventually tear themselves apart. But fortunately we do not have a
> pure democracy or we would have "perished from the earth" long ago. Oh my
> God, I stole from Lincoln now! Damn me damn me!
>
> Love your hatred of me. Keep it up.
>
> I think you should put in a request to bounce me from the list for
> plagiarism of appropriating Wiki!
>
> Best. Terrance
>
> _______________________________________________
> Milton-L mailing list
> Milton-L at richmond.edu<mailto:Milton-L at richmond.edu>
> Manage your list membership and access list archives at
> https://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l
>
> Milton-L web site: http://johnmilton.org/
>
> -------------- next part --------------
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> URL: <http://lists.richmond.edu/pipermail/milton-l/
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2017 21:01:43 +0000
> From: Nancy Charlton <charltonwordorder1 at gmail.com>
> To: John Milton Discussion List <milton-l at richmond.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Sure...
> Message-ID:
>         <CAGg6sLx0o0W0rRoF1pKA6GUWfBjnpOtoYRz0kcqmkMoDLoy6sw at mail.
> gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> If this were on Facebook, that lion of devouring time, I?d give it a Like
> and a Share and a ThumbsUp.
>
> Nancy Charlton
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 2, 2017 at 1:43 PM Schwartz, Louis <lschwart at richmond.edu>
> wrote:
>
> > Since it falls to me from time to time to moderate these discussions, let
> > me say a few things:
> >
> >
> > 1) Brendan's complaint about attributions is entirely legitimate in the
> > context of an academic discussion list, and Nancy is correct that the
> > problem would not have arisen if Terrance had used even a simple and
> > informal method of attribution (for example, "as the Wikipedia article on
> > .... says, ....").
> >
> >
> > 2) I urge people to keep in mind that the spectrum of political opinions
> > on this list is more varied than one might assume.  Please remember that
> > before painting with any broad brushes.
> >
> >
> > 3) Political matters, when they are related in one way or another to
> > Milton (and canonicity and the problems surrounding cultural
> appropriation
> > can be directly relevant), are perfectly legitimate subjects for
> discussion
> > here, and there's nothing wrong with even vehement disagreement, but I
> urge
> > Terrance and others to avoid using aggressively tendentious and even
> > insulting labels when characterizing the positions of those with whom
> they
> > disagree.  It's only likely to lead to more name-calling and a
> degeneration
> > of the discussion to the point at which  it becomes nothing but a battle
> > of caricatures.  Fine for a Facebook feed, but not here.
> >
> >
> > Best to all,
> >
> >
> > Louis
> >
> >
> > ======================
> > Louis Schwartz
> > Professor of English
> > Chair, Department of English
> > University of Richmond
> > Richmond, VA  23173
> > (804) 289-8315
> > lschwart at richmond.edu
> > ------------------------------
> > *From:* milton-l-bounces at richmond.edu <milton-l-bounces at richmond.edu> on
> > behalf of Nancy Charlton <charltonwordorder1 at gmail.com>
> > *Sent:* Thursday, November 2, 2017 2:46 PM
> > *To:* John Milton Discussion List
> > *Subject:* Re: [Milton-L] Sure...
> >
> > It seems to me that this brouhaha might have been avoided by the simple
> > courtesy of following the rudiments of documentation  and attribution
> most
> > of us learned in English 102, and later in Intro to Grad Study. Terrance
> > could have indicated Wikipedia as his source, and his authorship would
> not
> > have been taken as vainglorious self-seeking.
> >
> > Nancy harlton
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 2, 2017 at 10:23 AM, Terrance Lindall <tlindall at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Logic is not the issue. You would not understand that. It is a matter of
> >> correct use of language.
> >>
> >> Explanation maybe:
> >>
> >> I do use Wiki a lot. Maybe that's "appropriation" as per my post.  So
> sue
> >> me! It is not copyrighted. In some cases I wrote the initial articles,
> such
> >> as the one for Glamis Castle or Dr. Arno or Robert Wickenheiser on Wiki.
> >> All I am doing here on this list is providing information on a subject
> to
> >> you and not publishing for reputation or commercial purposes like you.
> You
> >> are the ones we have to watch more carefully. Your reputation rises and
> >> falls on what you pump out, so better not do anything that is not
> ENTIRELY
> >> ORIGINAL.
> >>
> >> History will judge all of us. I do not need to make money, and I have
> >> great collections. I am happy with that.
> >>
> >> All of you have appropriated the English language in some fashion. Every
> >> time you use a word or expression it is an act of appropriation. When
> you
> >> quote Milton you are appropriating his words for your perceived
> benefit. So
> >> stop quoting him or writing about him. You are appropriating his
> reputation
> >> for your benefit...a sin for sure.
> >>
> >>  Today, if you are a white person and try to open a Taco restaurant and
> >> are not Mexican you are attacked for appropriating culture (that was in
> the
> >> news). White kids cannot go out on Halloween in an ethnic costume
> without
> >> worrying about being criticized for appropriating culture. Contrarily,
> the
> >> English LOVE to have their language appropriated. Ain't that curious?
> Not
> >> really. World rule requires a common language. It may be Chinese when
> the
> >> Progressives destroy the West.
> >>
> >> From the point of view of the Liberal Progressive Stalinist,  if you are
> >> teaching English or Milton and are not directly descended from the
> English,
> >> you should be fired. You are appropriating the cultural asset of the
> >> English. If you are an honorable Progressive, PLEASE STOP TEACHING IT. I
> >> think that  a lot of you might do just as well teaching Karl Marx or the
> >> virtues of Stalin. Or maybe do a class on "The Problem of Lindallism." I
> >> can provide the study material.
> >>
> >> "All stripes and colors!" Is that a virtue of your Progressive
> >> "diversity?" I do not necessarily believe that diversity is a virtue.
> >> Diversity of values leads to conflict. Look around the world...conflict!
> >> Seeing is believing, no logic required. Even Plato knew that Democracies
> >> will eventually tear themselves apart. But fortunately we do not have a
> >> pure democracy or we would have "perished from the earth" long ago. Oh
> my
> >> God, I stole from Lincoln now! Damn me damn me!
> >>
> >> Love your hatred of me. Keep it up.
> >>
> >> I think you should put in a request to bounce me from the list for
> >> plagiarism of appropriating Wiki!
> >>
> >> Best. Terrance
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Milton-L mailing list
> >> Milton-L at richmond.edu
> >> Manage your list membership and access list archives at
> >> https://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l
> >>
> >> Milton-L web site: http://johnmilton.org/
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Milton-L mailing list
> > Milton-L at richmond.edu
> > Manage your list membership and access list archives at
> > https://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l
> >
> > Milton-L web site: http://johnmilton.org/
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>
> _______________________________________________
> Milton-L mailing list
> Milton-L at richmond.edu
> Manage your membership and access list archives at
> https://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l
>
> Milton-L web site: http://johnmilton.org/
>
> End of Milton-L Digest, Vol 132, Issue 2
> ****************************************
>
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