[Milton-L] Merit and Regicide was Merit, birthright regicide was RE: Not Milton, but a Miltonist in the NYT . . .

Watt, James jwatt at butler.edu
Wed Aug 3 18:03:47 EDT 2016


​Dear Carol:


Our poet, when he thought it necessary, was not above employing invective; the difference, however, is that the buffoons who would contend with him would generally scarcely grasp the extent to which their arguments had been demolished and, like Auld Nick himself, continue to expostulate on their solidity. His sweetness is less appreciated, but I love this passage near the end of the Areopagitica, and often smile at the spectacle of what passes these days for eloquence: "How many other things might be tolerated in peace and left to conscience, had we but charity, and were it not the chief stronghold of our hypocrisy to be ever judging one another. I fear yet this iron yoke of outward conformity hath left a slavish print upon our necks; the ghost of a linen decency yet haunts us." As another friend recently pointed out to me, we should do better for ourselves and our neighbors did we but focus on doing right --and leave to others the always perilous position of being right.


jim watt

________________________________
From: milton-l-bounces at richmond.edu <milton-l-bounces at richmond.edu> on behalf of Carol Barton, Ph.D., CPCM <cbartonphd1 at verizon.net>
Sent: Wednesday, August 3, 2016 3:33 PM
To: John Milton Discussion List
Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Merit and Regicide was Merit, birthright regicide was RE: Not Milton, but a Miltonist in the NYT . . .

No. It just struck me funny, when she was characterized as Satan, to imagine those lines being read, not by Gregory Peck (who was such a good Ahab) or James Earl Jones or someone else with that sort of vocal command being read by Hillary Clinton. It would be funny, read by Trump, too. (Someone’s already done a “take” on Hamlet’s soliloquy as modernized and inflected by the Donald, I think.)
I think there is quite enough invective being spewed everywhere for all of us (and it’s only August!).
Best to all,

Carol


From: Arlene Stiebel<mailto:amstiebel at aol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2016 3:11 PM
To: John Milton Discussion List<mailto:milton-l at richmond.edu>
Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Merit and Regicide was Merit,birthright regicide was RE: Not Milton, but a Miltonist in the NYT . . .

Carol,

When a candidate has been criticized in the press and commentary for how she sounds while speaking in public, such "description" does not appear to be flattering.  But I am very glad to learn that you did not intend it as demeaning.

All best,

Arlene

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 3, 2016, at 11:19 AM, Carol Barton, Ph.D., CPCM <cbartonphd1 at verizon.net<mailto:cbartonphd1 at verizon.net>> wrote:

Descriptive, Arlene—not “insulting,” and certainly not “politically biased”—as I specifically indicated.

From: Arlene Stiebel<mailto:amstiebel at aol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2016 2:15 PM
To: John Milton Discussion List<mailto:milton-l at richmond.edu>
Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Merit and Regicide was Merit,birthright regicide was RE: Not Milton, but a Miltonist in the NYT . . .

But Carol, "raspy screech" is clearly an insulting term, and it is clear to whom you must be referring.    I thought we had agreed to leave off political bias from this forum.  May we please refrain from further political comments.

Arlene

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 3, 2016, at 10:54 AM, Carol Barton, Ph.D., CPCM <cbartonphd1 at verizon.net<mailto:cbartonphd1 at verizon.net>> wrote:

Carrol: it’s just to deprive him of his rule—which is why England then and we now have the impeachment process—but not, in most cases, his life. They deprived Charles of his head not because he was having “a bad hair day,” Carl—but because they proved (to their own satisfaction, anyway) that he had committed treason in a variety of ways. So no: in and of itself, the passage Carrol cites does not justify regicide—though it does point up a significant difference between a divine right king, who had God’s sanction to rule even if he were a horrible tyrant (God sending a scourge upon a wayward people) and a King who rules not simply because it’s his birthright as the Son, but is by merit rais’d, because, like the tribal leaders of old, he has defended and protected his people.

I did have to smile, though, at the image of one of the candidates uttering the “All is not lost” speech from PL in that raspy screech of hers.

Best to all, with political affiliation to none (I have no clowns in this circus),

Carol Barton

From: JCarl Bellinger<mailto:dionhalic at gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2016 1:32 PM
To: John Milton Discussion List<mailto:milton-l at richmond.edu>
Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Merit and Regicide was Merit, birthright regicide was RE: Not Milton, but a Miltonist in the NYT . . .

so the King has a bad hair day and it's off with his head?

On Monday, July 25, 2016, Carrol Cox <cbcox at ilstu.edu<mailto:cbcox at ilstu.edu>> wrote:
Michael E Bryson: I would like to second James Rovira's hope that this list
is not about to descend into the "lower deep still threatening to devour"
that is a discussion of this election and either of these candidates.

====

I agree. We can escape to the political implications of Paradise Lost:

                        . . . .and hast been found
By merit more than birthright Son of God,-

Query: Is this not a justification of regicide? If the ruler rules by
_merit_, than when that merit fails, it is just to deprive him/her of rule?

Carrol

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