[Milton-L] a theoretical question, with practical application to sonnet 23

Schwartz, Louis lschwart at richmond.edu
Tue Apr 19 11:36:50 EDT 2016


Carol,


Yes.  This is why I said we make something different of it.  I don't see that we can be that certain of the speaker's certainty.  Different readings follow from how we construe this aspect of what he says.  But what he says suggests something more complex than just that he is speaking so privately that he has no reason to clarify the matter for "us" or in the fiction of the poem his interlocutor


Louis


======================
Louis Schwartz
Professor of English
Chair, Department of English
University of Richmond
Richmond, VA  23173
(804) 289-8315
lschwart at richmond.edu
________________________________
From: milton-l-bounces at richmond.edu <milton-l-bounces at richmond.edu> on behalf of Carol Barton, Ph.D., CPCM <cbartonphd1 at verizon.net>
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 11:22 AM
To: John Milton Discussion List
Subject: Re: [Milton-L] a theoretical question, with practical application to sonnet 23

I don't disagree with you, Louis. Both wives *are* there--just as every new bereavement we experience echoes every bereavement we have experienced in the past. I don't think, though, that the apparition is an amalgamation. Milton knows whom he has seen--it just isn't critical (or even technically desirable) for him to tell *us* which one she is.

All best,

Carol

From: Schwartz, Louis<mailto:lschwart at richmond.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 11:08 AM
To: John Milton Discussion List<mailto:milton-l at richmond.edu>
Subject: Re: [Milton-L] a theoretical question, with practical application to sonnet 23


​I believe, whatever we make of it or however we value it, that the presence of images in the poem that allude to both wives is indisputable.  I make something of it quite different from what Carol does, and I clearly value it differently from John, Matt, and Greg, but it's there.  It's something Milton did, however we construe his intentions or however we value the outcome.


Louis


======================
Louis Schwartz
Professor of English
Chair, Department of English
University of Richmond
Richmond, VA  23173
(804) 289-8315
lschwart at richmond.edu
________________________________
From: milton-l-bounces at richmond.edu <milton-l-bounces at richmond.edu> on behalf of John K Leonard <jleonard at uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 10:42 AM
To: John Milton Discussion List
Subject: Re: [Milton-L] a theoretical question, with practical application to sonnet 23

I too think the poem is diminished if we imagine two wives. I imagine just one, Katherine. A large part of the poignancy comes from the fact that Milton (and I prefer 'Milton' to 'Milton's speaker') had never seen her, and eagerly awaits seeing her face for the first time as she leans in to kiss, seeming about to lift her veil. Campbell and Corns add the significant detail that the expiry of her time of 'Purification' signals the time for resuming sexual intimacy, so the dreaming poet may be anticipating more than just a kiss. "But O...' I don't think anyone on this thread has yet mentioned the parallel with Adam's 'Methought I saw' dream in book 8 of PL (first noted by the Richardsons and since noted by many others). Adam (to Keats's delight) awoke and found it truth. The experience of this dreamer was not so happy, but even more poignant.

I'm astonished that this sonnet leaves some of you cold

John Leonard

On 04/19/16, Matthew Jordan <matthewjorda at gmail.com> wrote:

For me, two wives diminishes the poignancy as it increases the self-referentiality of the emotion evoked.

Tho I can't give a precise reference, Empson in 7 Types certainly sees as flawed cases of ambiguity (plurality of meaning) where the author seems merely confused or unclear in his thought.

It's true, tho, that "we" are almost constitutively keen on semantic "richness"....

Best, Matt

Sent from my iPhone

On 19 Apr 2016, at 14:15, Gregory Machacek <Gregory.Machacek at marist.edu<mailto:Gregory.Machacek at marist.edu>> wrote:

A number of recent comments provide a really good pretext for raising a point that I had intended to raise only in one of my later “installments.”  I can’t pass up the opportunity.  See the ingenuity of Truth, who when she gets a free and willing hand, opens her self faster than the pace of method and discours can overtake her.
Richard Strier says that in sonnet 23, Milton is attempting to “capture the power of what he had experienced” in the dream he had of his late-espoused saint.  Carol Barton describes that experience in appreciative and sympathetic paraphrase:
“It is only when we experience the longing for a loved one gone--his or her oh so real return in vivid dreams--and waking to the reality of the loss that we can understand the deep, sharp-edged desire (almost an obsession) to believe that we will see him or her in heaven, whole and purified of all sin and blemish. Milton wants with all his heart to believe that his late espoused saint will not only be restored to him, but restored to him in the glory of unity with God.”
Richard says that to capture this experience, Milton “feels that he needs to bring his whole knowledge of antiquity, classical and well as biblical, to bear on the experience.”   And Carol says that “I suspect that Milton, in writing this, was far more concerned with substance than he was with the strict demands of form.”
The overall thrust of these characterizations is that Milton’s sonnet is good because he packs into it so much meaning:  so much of the power the experience had for him, so much substance, his whole knowledge of antiquity.
Neither one of them is saying, nor, I’m certain, would crudely say that more meaning makes for a better poem.  Yet there are indications that, on balance, more meaning is a good thing and that it’s almost impossible to imagine too much meaning.  “That’s a lot to do in a sonnet, but he does it” is laudatory (emphasis added).  Even Louis Schwartz’s gesture toward “how unreasonably much can be found freighted into the lines” doesn’t sound pejorative so much as admiring (emphasis added).
So here’s the theoretical question:  Is there any amount of meaning that could be deemed superabundant?  Is a superabundance of meaning, as the kids ask, even a thing?  Could there actually be unreasonably much in a poem?  Can a poem’s pinnace be overfraught?  Could a poem reach a point where more meaning was actually a detriment rather than a virtue?  And if such a thing can be imagined, what would such a overfraught poem look like?
I ask this in particular connection with what Louis Schwartz tells us:
I don’t think the reference [in “Purification in the old law did save”] is to the Virgin Mary in a specific way, but the reference does suggest her, and she’s the nexus of the poem’s typological structure.  The suggestion also ties the reference to childbed to the poem’s biographical level, both because of the relationship between the Virgin’s purification and the later Christian rite of Churching and because her name suggests Milton’s first wife, while “purification” suggests the name of his second wife, who also died, I might add, just to show how unreasonably much can be found freighted into the lines if you choose to follow out these implications, on February 3, 1658, a day after the date of the celebration of the Feast of the Purification that year
The sonnet never overtly identifies which wife it concerns.  It contains one subtle reference that makes Mary a possibility and one subtle reference (maybe two) that makes Katherine a possibility.  Does it improve the sonnet to have both of those “meanings” available in the poem?  Are we to understand the dream-image as a composite of Mary and Katherine?  And would the poem have quite the same poignancy if Milton is reporting seeing wife-in-general rather than one specific one of his wives?  For me it would be less poignant, even if I knew he loved both of his wives deeply.  I don’t mind his not saying which wife it was, but I think the poem is more powerful if it the dream image is to be thought of one of his wives, not some kind of composite (and certainly not take-your-pick; there’s zero poignancy in that).
If such a thing can even be imagined at all, might this be a case where more meaning is a detriment rather than a virtue?

Greg Machacek
Professor of English
Marist College

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