[Milton-L] Fwd: The Common Good??

David Urban dvu2 at calvin.edu
Sat Oct 4 11:17:14 EDT 2014


Thanks, Carter. And to clarify my position, I'm actually fine with our list discussing a present-day political use of Milton if there's a real connection to Milton that those politicians/political analysts use. My concern is that we not offer present-day political discussion, bereft of these politicians making any direct reference to Milton, and then suggest that such discussion is apppriopriate because, according to our interpretation, Milton would agree with our political position.


Best,


David

________________________________
From: milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu <milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu> on behalf of Stella Revard <srevard at siue.edu>
Sent: Saturday, October 4, 2014 11:08 AM
To: John Milton Discussion List
Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Fwd: The Common Good??

Many thanks, David; it's an excellent book.  And on behalf of Matt's political citations, the book (and any Milton bio) makes clear that from Milton's childhood on his idea of poetry and true poet was what we surely must call "political"--he aspired to sing for the nation, not just to entertain and delight but to lead and guide.  Everyone on the list knows this, and royalist-favoring critics  certainly "bring in" and voice political views in books and essays cited and discussed on the Milton List.  I think what you refer to, though, is contemporary British political people and policies and events.

The book for which you very helpfully provided a link shows, among other things, how one of Milton's teachers, the junior Gill, got into hot water over political matters (Buckingham and James) and was punished by Laud. So, thoroughly Miltonic, highly political, and easy to link up with 2014 British stuff, or American, etc. etc.  Still, I agree that this can degenerate quickly into tweety/ranty/bloggy stuff and for the List it is better to focus on 17C politics, always aware that poets--Milton, Shakespeare, Jonson, Dryden for instance--"apply" to events and history in any age including our own:  just about any performance of Macbeth in the later 20th and early 21st centuries can illustrate that, and in the debates over Samson Agonistes John Carey and many others referenced Israel and Palestine....

On 10/03/14, David Urban <dvu2 at calvin.edu> wrote:

Well, speaking of Milton and St. Paul's, check out what you can now read online for free:


https://archive.org/stream/johnmiltonatstpa00clar#page/n5/mode/2up​


There, Matthew--I've just made this thread thoroughly Miltonic.


Best,


David

________________________________
From: milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu <milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu> on behalf of Matthew Jordan <matthewjorda at gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, October 3, 2014 7:08 PM
To: John Milton Discussion List
Subject: [Milton-L] Fwd: The Common Good??

Can't resist one last snippet, because it concerns Milton's school, St. Paul's. When he was in the Bullingdon Club, George Osborne's nickname was "oik," on account of his attendance there.


According to the Daily Mail:

During his time in the Bullingdon Club, he was reportedly nicknamed ‘Oik’ because he had gone to St Paul’s public school instead of Eton or Harrow. A popular lark among his fellow Buller men was to hold him upside-down by the ankles and scream: ‘Who are you?’

After several ‘wrong’ answers, each followed by Mr Osborne being dropped on his head, he was finally released after squealing: ‘I am a despicable ****.’ Source<http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1080808/Mystery-missing-hellraisers-George-Osborne-spirits-drinking-party.html>

Do bear in mind that, according to Wikipedia,


George Gideon Oliver Osborne[1]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Osborne#cite_note-1> (born Gideon Oliver Osborne; 23 May 1971)[2]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Osborne#cite_note-ReferenceA-2> is a British Conservative Party<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Party_%28UK%29>politician who has been the Chancellor of the Exchequer<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chancellor_of_the_Exchequer> andSecond Lord of the Treasury<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Lord_of_the_Treasury> since 2010 and the Member of Parliament<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Commons_of_the_United_Kingdom> for Tatton<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatton_%28UK_Parliament_constituency%29> since 2001<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_general_election,_2001>.

Osborne comes from one of the oldest Anglo-Irish<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Irish>aristocracies<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Ascendancy>, and is the heir apparent<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heir_apparent> to the Osborne baronetcy<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_Baronets>.[3]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Osborne#cite_note-3>[4]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Osborne#cite_note-4>

On 3 October 2014 21:38, Matthew Jordan <matthewjorda at gmail.com <matthewjorda at gmail.com>> wrote:
Thanks, Joad!!

On 3 October 2014 21:24, Joad Raymond <joadraymond at gmail.com <joadraymond at gmail.com>> wrote:
Matthew,
Nicely done.
Best,
Joad

On 3 October 2014 19:24, Matthew Jordan <matthewjorda at gmail.com <matthewjorda at gmail.com>> wrote:
It’s also handy that we let them all keep their titles: in the UK, unlike in the US, they are effectively ink-marked. Milton’s views on the hereditary aristocracy were abundantly clear.
Cameron is the grandson of Sir William Malcolm Mount ofWasing<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasing>Place, 2nd Baronet
Cameron descends fromKing William IV<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_IV_of_the_United_Kingdom>and his mistressDorothea Jordan<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothea_Jordan>through their illegitimate daughterLady Elizabeth FitzClarence<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Hay,_Countess_of_Erroll>[11]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_of_David_Cameron#cite_note-11>to the fifth female generation Enid Agnes Maud Levita. His father's maternal grandmother, Stephanie Levita, née Cooper, was the daughter ofSir Alfred Cooper<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Cooper>and Lady Agnes Duff (sister ofAlexander Duff, 1st Duke of Fife<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Duff,_1st_Duke_of_Fife>) and a sister ofDuff Cooper, 1st Viscount Norwich<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duff_Cooper>,GCMG<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_St_Michael_and_St_George>,DSO<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distinguished_Service_Order>,PC<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Her_Majesty%27s_Most_Honourable_Privy_Council>, Conservative statesman and author.[12]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_of_David_Cameron#cite_note-12>His paternal grandmother, Enid Levita, who married secondly in 1961 a younger son of1st Baron Manton<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Watson,_1st_Baron_Manton>,[13]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_of_David_Cameron#cite_note-13>was the daughter of Arthur Levita and niece ofSir Cecil Levita<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecil_Levita>,KCVO<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Victorian_Order>CBE<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_British_Empire>, Chairman of London County Council in 1928. Through the Mantons, Cameron also has kinship withAlexander Fermor-Hesketh, 3rd Baron Hesketh<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Fermor-Hesketh,_3rd_Baron_Hesketh>,KBE<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_British_Empire>,PC<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privy_Council_of_the_United_Kingdom>,[14]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_of_David_Cameron#cite_note-14>Conservative Chief Whip in the House of Lords 1991–93.[nb 1]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_of_David_Cameron#cite_note-16>Cameron's maternal grandfather wasSir William Mount, 2nd Baronet<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_William_Mount,_2nd_Baronet>, an army officer and theHigh Sheriff of Berkshire<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Sheriff_of_Berkshire>, and Cameron's maternal great-grandfather wasSir William Mount, 1st Baronet<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_William_Mount,_1st_Baronet>,CBE<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_British_Empire>, Conservative MP for Newbury 1910–1922. Lady Ida Matilde Alice Feilding, Cameron's great-great grandmother, was the daughter ofWilliam Feilding, 7th Earl of Denbigh<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Feilding,_7th_Earl_of_Denbigh>,GCH<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Guelphic_Order>,PC<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privy_Council_of_the_United_Kingdom>, acourtier<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courtier>andGentleman of the Bedchamber<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentleman_of_the_Bedchamber>.[16]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_of_David_Cameron#cite_note-17>
David Cameron is 9th great grandson ofSir Edmund Sawyer<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sir_Edmund_Sawyer&action=edit&redlink=1>(died 1676), Auditor of the Exchequer and father of MPSir Robert Sawyer<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Robert_Sawyer>of High Clerc[1]<http://www.berkshirehistory.com/bios/rsawyer.html>, who was Attorney General during the reign ofKing James I<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_James_I>and a noted Barrister of the day, whose skills in court were remarked upon bySamuel Pepys<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Pepys>.
Cameron is the nephew ofSir William Dugdale<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Dugdale_%28Aston_Villa_chairman%29>, brother-in-law of Katherine, Lady Dugdale (died 2004)Lady-in-Waiting<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady-in-Waiting>to the Queen since 1955,[23]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_of_David_Cameron#cite_note-25>[24]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_of_David_Cameron#cite_note-26>[25]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_of_David_Cameron#cite_note-27>and former chairman ofAston Villa Football Club<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aston_Villa_F.C.>. Birmingham-born documentary filmmakerJoshua Dugdale<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_Dugdale>is his cousin.[26]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_of_David_Cameron#cite_note-28>Cameron's other notable relations includeAdam Hart-Davis<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Hart-Davis>,Duff Hart-Davis<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duff_Hart-Davis>,[27]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_of_David_Cameron#cite_note-29>Boris Johnson<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Johnson>who is theConservative<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Party_%28UK%29>Mayor of London<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayor_of_London>;Jo Johnson<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jo_Johnson>who is theConservative<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Party_%28UK%29>MP<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_of_Parliament>forOrpington<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orpington_%28UK_Parliament_constituency%29>andRachel Johnson<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Johnson>(8th cousins),[28]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_of_David_Cameron#cite_note-30>[29]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_of_David_Cameron#cite_note-31>Ferdinand Mount (Formerly Sir Ferdinand Mount, 3rd Baronet)<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Mount>;,[30]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_of_David_Cameron#cite_note-32>John Julius Norwich, 2nd Viscount Norwich<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Julius_Norwich>,CVO<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Victorian_Order>,[31]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_of_David_Cameron#cite_note-33>andGeorge Osborne<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Osborne>(22nd cousin 3x removed).
It was through this union that Cameron was related to the royal family, he is fifth cousin once removed of Queen Elizabeth.[18]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_of_David_Cameron#cite_note-Daily_Mail_Trust_about_money-19>
Cameron is married toSamantha Gwendoline Sheffield<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samantha_Cameron>, the daughter ofSir Reginald Sheffield, 8th Baronet<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Reginald_Sheffield,_8th_Baronet>and Annabel Lucy Veronica Jones (nowViscountess Astor<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annabel_Astor,_Viscountess_Astor>).

You can, if you wish, look up SamCam's ancestry, too...

Best

Matt

On 3 October 2014 19:04, Matthew Jordan <matthewjorda at gmail.com <matthewjorda at gmail.com>> wrote:
Well, I "guess" a hermeneutic key might be found in an Education Secretary who can wax, repeatedly, about the importance of teaching Dryden in secondary schools, but can't bring himself so much as to mention Milton...

On 3 October 2014 18:43, David Urban <dvu2 at calvin.edu <dvu2 at calvin.edu>> wrote:

I guess I missed the Miltonic allusions in this video.


But in all seriousness, I don't think the John Milton Discussion List is the forum for political statements/insults unrelated to Milton.

________________________________
From: milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu <milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu> <milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu <milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu>> on behalf of Matthew Jordan <matthewjorda at gmail.com <matthewjorda at gmail.com>>
Sent: Friday, October 3, 2014 11:25 AM
To: John Milton Discussion List
Subject: [Milton-L] The Common Good??

Dear Miltonists

On a literalist interpretation, perhaps off-topic; on a true one, not.

With all *due* apologies to anyone of a reprehensible yet over-sensitive political disposition.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YBumQHPAeU

Mind you, we are going to stuff them, so none of this will happen...

Best

Matt

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Conversations with Angels: Essays Towards a History of Spiritual Communication, 1100-1700    amazon uk<http://www.amazon.co.uk/Conversations-Angels-Spiritual-Communication-1100-1700/dp/023055203X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1316582709&sr=8-1>
The Oxford History of Popular Print Culture, vol. 1: Cheap Print in Britain and Ireland to 1660. Winner of the Roland H. Bainton<http://www.sixteenthcentury.org/pbainton.shtml>prize for Reference.    OUP<http://ukcatalogue.oup.com/product/academic/society/9780199287048.do?sortby=pubDateDescend>     Amazon uk<http://www.amazon.co.uk/Oxford-History-Popular-Print-Culture/dp/019928704X>        Amazon.com<http://www.amazon.com/Oxford-History-Popular-Print-Culture/dp/019928704X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1303900383&sr=8-2>
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