[Milton-L] what to call angelic lovemaking

Sara van den Berg vandens at slu.edu
Tue Nov 18 13:05:01 EST 2014


Milton calls it "love"  (cf. "love's proper hue" when Raphael blushes).

Sara van den Berg

On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Gregory Machacek <
Gregory.Machacek at marist.edu> wrote:

> The question (below) is what *we* should call angelic cohabitation, if
> not *sex*.
>
> I suppose we can call it whatever we want, but Milton likely wouldn't have
> called it *sex*.
>
> The OED's earliest witness for *sex* meaning Physical contact between
> individuals involving sexual stimulation; sexual activity or behaviour,
> *spec.*sexual intercourse, copulation.is from 1900.  Assembling the bits
> that PL gives us, Milton would maybe call it "love expressing" (Adam asks
> "do you love" and "do you express it" and Raphael says "yes").  He might
> have called it "conversation"; he likes that word (which in English had the
> meaning "sexual intercourse or intimacy" earlier than it had the meaning
> "exchange of thoughts and words) and he likes the slippage between those
> two senses of that word.
>
> I like the slippage between those two senses of the word, so I'm going to
> call it *conversation*.
>
>
> Greg Machacek
> Professor of English
> Marist College
>
>
> -----milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu wrote: -----
> To: John Milton Discussion List <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
> From: "Stella Revard"
> Sent by: milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu
> Date: 11/18/2014 03:28AM
> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Adam ate of . . . the wrong Tree!
>
> Interesting question:  what should we call angelic cohabitation, if not
> sex?  Milton evidently wanted to broaden his readers's understanding of
> love and lovemaking:  in PL 8.595 ff. Adam tells Raphael how fervently he
> adores Eve, but insists that it is not only her beauty, not only the
> delights of procreation and the "genial bed," but even more "those graceful
> acts,/ Those thousand decencies that daily flow/ From all her words and
> actions, mixt with Love/ And sweet compliance, which declare unfeign'd/
> Union of mind, or in us both one Soule;/ Harmonie to behold in wedded pair/
> More grateful than harmonious sound to the eare." [NOTE:  AS DIANE MCCOLLEY
> AND
> STELLA REVARD and many others have pointed out, Adam has previously
> emphasized Eve's "greatness of mind and nobleness" (l. 557).]  So when
> Adam then asks Raphael whether and how angels love, he really puts him on
> the spot, and Raphael answers (as we all know well) very explicitly.
>
> Adam asks:  "Love not the heav'nly Spirits, and how thir Love/ Express
> they, by looks onely, or do they mix/ Irradiance, virtual or immediate
> touch?"  It is a question so direct and explicit that if the bluenosed
> censors of Lady Chatterley and Ulysses had actually read Paradise Lost
> they'd probably have tried to ban it too--at least this bit, and at least
> in schools.
>
> Now, to return to James Rovira's question, whether we can call angelic
> lovemaking "sex" if it's not generative and doesn't require gender, my view
> is we absobloodylutely can and should.  Rafael says (622ff):  "Whatever
> pure thou in the body enjoy'st/ (And pure thou wert created), we enjoy/ In
> eminence, and obstacle find none/ Of membrane, joynt, or limb, exclusive
> barrs...."  As Richard well says, it is "spectacularly
> non-genital,...recreative, intimate, and amazingly erotic, but not
> procreative."  The lines are perhaps meant to invoke Plato and Socrates,
> perhaps even, very privately, Milton and Diodati.
>
> Actually, I think we cannot be sure angelic lovemaking is NOT
> procreative:  perhaps those "stripling angels" are begotten not created?
> Milton of course sensibly does not delve further into this matter:  Raphael
> points out that the sun is now parting, which is his signal to depart, and
> Adam goes back to his Bower and Eve.
>
>
>
> On 11/17/14, *James Rovira * <jamesrovira at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Can we really call it "sex" if it's not generative and doesn't require
> gender?
>
> Jim R
>
> On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 9:15 PM, Richard A. Strier <rastrier at uchicago.edu
> <rastrier at uchicago.edu>> wrote:
>
>>  A and E in Eden look forward to having children.  And yes, angelic sex,
>> which is spectacularly non-genital, does seem to be recreative, intimate,
>> and amazingly erotic, but not procreative.
>>
>>
>>    ------------------------------
>> *From:* milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu <
>> milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu> [milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu
>> <milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu>] on behalf of Stella Revard [
>> srevard at siue.edu <srevard at siue.edu>]
>> *Sent:* Monday, November 17, 2014 6:32 PM
>> *To:* John Milton Discussion List
>> *Subject:* Re: [Milton-L] Adam ate of . . . the wrong Tree!
>>
>>
>>  Thanks Arlene!  and Richard, I think you are right--though I can't
>> recall any PL texts confirming it--that if they had remained obedient, Adam
>> and Eve, and all the other creatures, would have reproduced in Eden.  When
>> we first "see" them in Book 3, they are "reaping immortal fruits of joy and
>> love," and when we next see them, in Books 4 and 5, they are not turning
>> from each other in their Bower of Bliss, so we surely would expect this to
>> be a fruitful union--though I believe their first-born, Cain, was likely
>> conceived during the post-Knowledge orgy, and their second-born, Seth, only
>> in their snake-stomping days after they had relocated from Eden. I don't
>> recall any PL text about whether or when humans if they had remained
>> unfallen might have spread beyond Eden; Milton answered a great many
>> questions but did not, I think, address that one.
>>
>> As for angelic sex as described by Raphael, am I wrong to infer that it
>> was not for purposes of reproduction, but for pleasure--recreation, not
>> procreation?  Milton tells us that Satan disguised himself as a "stripling"
>> angel, so it does seem that there were younger angels and older ones,
>> whatever we are to make of that.  And they did sleep, as witness "Sleep'st
>> thou?" though I'm not sure whether Satan and his "mate" were sleeping
>> "together" in that sense....
>>
>> Carter
>>
>>
>> On 11/17/14, *Arlene Stiebel *<amstiebel at aol.com <amstiebel at aol.com>>
>> wrote:
>>
>>    Yes.  And may we also keep in mind that the forbidden tree was the
>> one prohibiting Knowledge of Good and Evil -- not *all* knowledge, but
>> specifically that of a certain kind to which Adam and Eve were not supposed
>> to have access.  One may infer that any other knowledge except for that "of
>> good and evil" was available to our mutual parents, as they were
>> continually being schooled in things appropriate to their status.
>>
>>
>>  On Nov 17, 2014, at 3:29 PM, "Stella Revard" <srevard at siue.edu <
>> srevard at siue.edu> <srevard at siue.edu <srevard at siue.edu>>> wrote:
>>
>> I think we should all read again, very carefully, Book Three.  There,
>> Milton's God and his Son make it perfectly clear that God can do ANYthing
>> (he could for instance create all the parking spaces humans may need--Noo
>> Yawkers take note!), that he has begotten his Son and promoted him to head
>> of all the angels, that the angels understand this is a new way for them to
>> be raised in knowledge and heavenly joy and brought closer to God, that the
>> angels (like Adam and Eve  when they are created) are free to accept or
>> reject this gift, that some angels will reject it, and that God will will
>> presently create the Universe for a race of new beings (human and animal
>> plus ???).  In short, the angels are continually learning more about
>> themselves, about Heaven, about God, about the Son; and their response,
>> like that of Adam and Eve as they voice their morning prayers and psalms,
>> is to sing, to put new knowledge into song, to celebrate their new
>> knowledge of Everything past and present and to come, to understand more
>> fully the power and mercy and justice of the Creator.  It is not a static
>> place, Milton's Heaven, not one inhabited by passive or changeless beings,
>> but a place where (as we first see and hear God, the Son, and the angels
>> speaking) we see fierce and continual action, mysteries suddenly becoming
>> clear, unimaginable happenings:  past, present, and future are put into
>> words and we view all of history from the begetting of the Son through the
>> rebellion of some angels, the creation of the Universe and the fall of its
>> new human beings, then the judgment of them by the Son and the promise that
>> he will redeem them (till one greater man restore them, and regain the
>> blissful seat, as we had been told in the poem's opening sentence).
>>
>> We need to keep in mind also that this portrayal of angels in  PL 3 is
>> not something just worked out by Milton while writing the poem; he had
>> portrayed angels in *Lycidas* as beings whose songs gave heavenly solace
>> and higher status to a human being:  "There entertain him all the Saints
>> above,/ In solemn troops, and sweet Societies,/ That sing, and singing in
>> their glory move,/ And wipe the tears forever from his eyes."
>>
>> And so it goes.  Best to all the List Folk.
>>
>> Carter
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 11/17/14, *James Rovira *<jamesrovira at gmail.com <jamesrovira at gmail.com>
>> <jamesrovira at gmail.com <jamesrovira at gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>
>>  Right -- Adam and Eve were built capable of both reproduction and
>> physical? immortality (via the Tree of Life), so the assumption should be
>> that had they chosen eternal life they would both physically reproduce and
>> physically live forever. Space would be a problem, but parking would be a
>> bigger problem.
>>
>>  Is the immortality communicated by the Tree of Life in PL physical? Or
>> would they be translated to heaven as Enoch and Elijah were?
>>
>>  I imagine also that all of their progeny would have to choose not to
>> eat the fruit, so some would be subject to death, creating parallel human
>> species cohabitating on the same planet: fallen and unfallen.
>>
>>  Sounds like the premise of a science fiction novel.
>>
>>  Jim R
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 4:10 PM, Richard A. Strier <rastrier at uchicago.edu
>> <rastrier at uchicago.edu> <rastrier at uchicago.edu <rastrier at uchicago.edu>> <
>> rastrier at uchicago.edu <rastrier at uchicago.edu> <rastrier at uchicago.edu <
>> rastrier at uchicago.edu>>>> wrote:
>>
>>>  I like the point about extra space in heaven.  Other planets available
>>> too.  But why assume that future humans would not reproduce, since this is
>>> part of their "job," and is one of the things that distinguishes them/us
>>> from angels?
>>>
>>>
>>>    ------------------------------
>>> *From:* milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu <
>>> milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu> <
>>> milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu <milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu>>
>>> <milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu <
>>> milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu> <
>>> milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu <milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu>>>
>>> [milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu <
>>> milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu> <
>>> milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu <milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu>>
>>> <milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu <
>>> milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu> <
>>> milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu <milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu>>>]
>>> on behalf of Michael Gillum [mgillum at unca.edu <mgillum at unca.edu> <
>>> mgillum at unca.edu <mgillum at unca.edu>> <mgillum at unca.edu <mgillum at unca.edu>
>>> <mgillum at unca.edu <mgillum at unca.edu>>>]
>>> *Sent:* Monday, November 17, 2014 3:03 PM
>>>
>>> *To:* John Milton Discussion List
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Milton-L] Adam ate of . . . the wrong Tree!
>>>
>>>
>>>  About the Malthusian problem--
>>>
>>>  "Your bodies may at last turn all to Spirit
>>> <http://t.signauxdix.com/e1t/c/5/f18dQhb0S7lC8dDMPbW2n0x6l2B9nMJW7t5XX48qCrCPW8qyPx43H6XTxW72TN_H5fT_cx101?t=&si=4763272727232512&pi=d52cf1ca-744e-4e95-8485-9adf0d6daa46>
>>> ,
>>> Improv'd by tract of time, and wingd ascend
>>> Ethereal, as wee, or may at choice
>>> Here or in Heav'nly Paradises dwell;" [ 5.500 ]
>>>  --So, the evolved future humans will have access to Heaven, which is
>>> huge compared to Earth and seems to have lots of unoccupied territory.
>>> Also, I suppose the spiritualized future humans will longer reproduce, just
>>> as angels do not reproduce.
>>> Michael
>>>
>>>  On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 3:26 PM, Richard A. Strier <
>>> rastrier at uchicago.edu <rastrier at uchicago.edu> <rastrier at uchicago.edu <
>>> rastrier at uchicago.edu>> <rastrier at uchicago.edu <rastrier at uchicago.edu> <
>>> rastrier at uchicago.edu <rastrier at uchicago.edu>>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>  Would that have raised a Malthusian problem?  A and E and all the
>>>> progeny and their progeny's progeny, etc forever?
>>>>
>>>>  Also-- how are the angels continually raised in status?  Seems like
>>>> they stay where they are.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    *From:* milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu <
>>>> milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu> <
>>>> milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu <
>>>> milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu>> <
>>>> milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu <
>>>> milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu> <
>>>> milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu <
>>>> milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu>>> [
>>>> milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu <
>>>> milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu> <
>>>> milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu <
>>>> milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu>> <
>>>> milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu <
>>>> milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu> <
>>>> milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu <
>>>> milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu>>>] on behalf of Stella Revard [
>>>> srevard at siue.edu <srevard at siue.edu> <srevard at siue.edu <srevard at siue.edu>>
>>>> <srevard at siue.edu <srevard at siue.edu> <srevard at siue.edu <
>>>> srevard at siue.edu>>>]
>>>> *Sent:* Monday, November 17, 2014 2:11 PM
>>>> *To:* John Milton Discussion List
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Milton-L] Adam ate of . . . the wrong Tree!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  And the clear answer, Richard, is that "immortality" means
>>>> deathlessness:  Adam and Eve, had they not fallen, would never have died,
>>>> but like angels been continually raised in status and brought to greater
>>>> knowledge and fuller being.  (Raphael's speculative account of humans
>>>> ascending to angelic status, still presumably able to eat and digest fruit
>>>> completely without waste or corruption, is relevant but not at issue in
>>>> Book 11.)  I don't see how Milton could have made it any clearer, at least
>>>> for readers who like Jameela actually DO read what Milton wrote and see
>>>> that he had thought matters through and stated them as plainly as the
>>>> complicated and tangled Scriptural authorities would allow.  In the opening
>>>> lines of the poem, "brought Death into the world" states matters clearly
>>>> and simply; and the lines Jameela quotes give some detail in which Milton
>>>> is thinking straightforwardly about fallen human physiology of eating,
>>>> drinking, digesting, crapping, and so on. "Corruption" is given a very
>>>> closeup and literal meaning here.  (For an obsessed variant of this, see
>>>> Swift's Gulliver:  Swift is outraged and disgusted whereas Milton is
>>>> matter-of-fact.)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  On 11/17/14, *"Richard A. Strier" *<rastrier at uchicago.edu <
>>>> rastrier at uchicago.edu> <rastrier at uchicago.edu <rastrier at uchicago.edu>>
>>>> <rastrier at uchicago.edu <rastrier at uchicago.edu> <rastrier at uchicago.edu <
>>>> rastrier at uchicago.edu>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> But the question is what "immortality" means here.
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>> > On Nov 17, 2014, at 11:23 AM, "Jameela Lares" <jameela.lares at usm.edu
>>>> <jameela.lares at usm.edu> <jameela.lares at usm.edu <jameela.lares at usm.edu>>
>>>> <jameela.lares at usm.edu <jameela.lares at usm.edu> <jameela.lares at usm.edu <
>>>> jameela.lares at usm.edu>>>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > PL does say something about pre- and postlapsarian diet.
>>>> >
>>>> > But longer in that Paradise to dwell,
>>>> > The Law I gave to Nature him forbids:
>>>> > Those pure immortal Elements that know
>>>> > No gross, no unharmoneous mixture foule,
>>>> > Eject him tainted now, and purge him off
>>>> > As a distemper, gross to aire as gross,
>>>> > And mortal food, as may dispose him best
>>>> > For dissolution wrought by Sin, that first
>>>> > Distemperd all things, and of incorrupt
>>>> > Corrupted.  I at first with two fair gifts
>>>> > Created him endowd, with Happiness
>>>> > And Immortalitie: that fondly lost,
>>>> > This other serv’d but to eternize woe. . . .
>>>> > (PL 11:48-60)
>>>> >
>>>> > Jameela Lares
>>>> > Professor of English
>>>> > The University of Southern Mississippi
>>>> > 118 College Drive, #5037
>>>> > Hattiesburg, MS  39406-0001
>>>> > 601 266-4319 ofc
>>>> > 601 266-5757 fax
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  --
>>  Dr. James Rovira
>> Associate Professor of English
>> Tiffin University
>> http://www.jamesrovira.com
>> <http://t.signauxdix.com/e1t/c/5/f18dQhb0S7lC8dDMPbW2n0x6l2B9nMJW7t5XX48qCrCPW8qyPx43H6XTxW72TN_H5fT_cx101?t=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jamesrovira.com%2F&si=4763272727232512&pi=d52cf1ca-744e-4e95-8485-9adf0d6daa46>
>> Blake and Kierkegaard: Creation and Anxiety
>> Continuum 2010
>> http://jamesrovira.com/blake-and-kierkegaard-creation-and-anxiety/
>> <http://t.signauxdix.com/e1t/c/5/f18dQhb0S7lC8dDMPbW2n0x6l2B9nMJW7t5XX48qCrCPW8qyPx43H6XTxW72TN_H5fT_cx101?t=http%3A%2F%2Fjamesrovira.com%2Fblake-and-kierkegaard-creation-and-anxiety%2F&si=4763272727232512&pi=d52cf1ca-744e-4e95-8485-9adf0d6daa46>
>>  Text, Identity, Subjectivity
>> http://scalar.usc.edu/works/text-identity-subjectivity/index
>> <http://t.signauxdix.com/e1t/c/5/f18dQhb0S7lC8dDMPbW2n0x6l2B9nMJW7t5XX48qCrCPW8qyPx43H6XTxW72TN_H5fT_cx101?t=http%3A%2F%2Fscalar.usc.edu%2Fworks%2Ftext-identity-subjectivity%2Findex&si=4763272727232512&pi=d52cf1ca-744e-4e95-8485-9adf0d6daa46>
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
> --
> Dr. James Rovira
> Associate Professor of English
> Tiffin University
> http://www.jamesrovira.com
> <http://t.signauxdix.com/e1t/c/5/f18dQhb0S7lC8dDMPbW2n0x6l2B9nMJW7t5XX48qCrCPW8qyPx43H6XTxW72TN_H5fT_cx101?t=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jamesrovira.com%2F&si=4763272727232512&pi=d52cf1ca-744e-4e95-8485-9adf0d6daa46>
> Blake and Kierkegaard: Creation and Anxiety
> Continuum 2010
> http://jamesrovira.com/blake-and-kierkegaard-creation-and-anxiety/
> <http://t.signauxdix.com/e1t/c/5/f18dQhb0S7lC8dDMPbW2n0x6l2B9nMJW7t5XX48qCrCPW8qyPx43H6XTxW72TN_H5fT_cx101?t=http%3A%2F%2Fjamesrovira.com%2Fblake-and-kierkegaard-creation-and-anxiety%2F&si=4763272727232512&pi=d52cf1ca-744e-4e95-8485-9adf0d6daa46>
> Text, Identity, Subjectivity
> http://scalar.usc.edu/works/text-identity-subjectivity/index
> <http://t.signauxdix.com/e1t/c/5/f18dQhb0S7lC8dDMPbW2n0x6l2B9nMJW7t5XX48qCrCPW8qyPx43H6XTxW72TN_H5fT_cx101?t=http%3A%2F%2Fscalar.usc.edu%2Fworks%2Ftext-identity-subjectivity%2Findex&si=4763272727232512&pi=d52cf1ca-744e-4e95-8485-9adf0d6daa46>
>
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