[Milton-L] more, seemingly ever more, on fallacious

jsavoie at siue.edu jsavoie at siue.edu
Thu Apr 17 14:55:47 EDT 2014


Not much friction, for better and worse.

John Savoie

Quoting Matthew Jordan <matthewjorda at gmail.com>:

> Incidentally, I wonder where the angels' "easier than air with air" is in all
> this, when it comes to ideals of sexuality??
>
> Best
>
> Matt
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On 17 Apr 2014, at 17:41, Gregory Machacek <Gregory.Machacek at marist.edu>
> wrote:
> >
> > I should have made more pointed that advancing this newest reading requires
> me to abandon the fellatio bit of John Savoie's article (which, by the way,
> I'd never endorsed, just explored some possible linguistic grounds for).
> This new reading attempts to address itself to Lewis and Strier's
> observations that pre and post lapsarian lovemaking is either too similar or
> altogether indistinguishable (the question that drives John's article).  This
> new reading attempts to answer that charge by flatly acknowledging it:  the
> lovemaking is exactly the same.  What Milton's treatment of the moment after
> lapsarian lovemaking allows to see is that that the only difference is that
> Adam has now "got" the "evil" of having "lost" being able to regard
> lovemaking with Eve as simply "good"; he now regards it as less good than the
> super-enhanced lovemaking he'd imagined the fruit would allow (along with
> extra knowledge (although knowledge had never really been his temptation, but
> something having to do with the link of nature)).
> >
> > It's on John Savoie to find cunnilingus going on somewhere in the passage,
> although, of the two, fellatio is the more disruptive of reproductive
> sexuality; that's what I suppose he'll argue.
> >
> > Greg Machacek
> > Professor of English
> > Marist College
> >
> >
> > -----milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu wrote: -----
> > To: "John Milton Discussion List" <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
> > From: "Carol Barton, Ph.D., CPCM"
> > Sent by: milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu
> > Date: 04/17/2014 11:58AM
> > Subject: Re: [Milton-L] more, seemingly ever more, on fallacious
> >
> > Okay, I wasn't going to go there, but I think it's time someone raised this
> issue: why would Milton have chosen to portray (or modern males to read)
> degradation of Eve's sexual proclivities only? Where's your evidence for
> cunnilingus in all this--or was Adam above such things?
> >
> > I just don't buy it, Shirley.
> >
> > Best to all,
> >
> > Carol Barton
> >
> >
> > From: Gregory Machacek
> > Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 11:39 AM
> > To: John Milton Discussion List
> > Subject: Re: [Milton-L] more, seemingly ever more, on fallacious
> >
> > John Leonard 'Surely it was the  expectation of knowledge, rather than any
> hope that sex would "be better somehow", that makes the fruit "fallax"'
> >
> > They're not mutually exclusive.
> >
> > John Savoie's better point than the fellatio bit is that the act of
> lovemaking we're considering is not postlapsarian but lapsarian,
> part-and-parcel with the fall; John (Leonard) quickly follows the above quote
> by acknowledging there is (even outside of Milton) a connection between
> knowledge and carnal knowledge.  There are a lot of reasons for believing
> Milton wants us to regard knowing  as tied up with "knowing" (if you know
> what I mean, hint hint, nudge nudge).  First, there is the very fact that
> we've been looking at; that the fallaciousness of the fruit doesn't emerge
> until after the eating and the lovemaking.  Also, as part of her temptation
> of Adam,  Eve proposes not just knowledge, but "new joys," that what had
> "touched her sense" before she ate of the tree is flat compared with how
> sweet things can be.  And it's female "charm" that wins him over, and there's
> some talk of "flesh" and "engorging" along the way.  Even back in book 4, the
> narrator made the link by exhorting Adam and Eve to "know to know no more"
> right on the heels of his description of their lovemaking.  Heck, "rising" in
> the quote on which John focuses admits of a sexualized meaning, maybe fall
> too.
> >
> > Among the "evils got" may be the evil of now being dissatisfied with
> lovemaking for having imagined that there would be a better version of it, to
> which Adam now negatively compares even exactly the same experience as he had
> previously enjoyed with Eve.
> >
> > And stop calling me Shirley!  (there's some "flaccid demotic" for ya).
> >
> > Greg Machacek
> > Professor of English
> > Marist College
> >
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