[Milton-L] seizing | seizing; sex before and after

JD Fleming jfleming at sfu.ca
Mon Apr 14 21:08:44 EDT 2014


Going completely off-piste: The Nastiest Beatles of All is surely in the early work, though you have to go look for it--check out "Run for Your Life"--John Lennon in full 50s Scouser-home-from-the-pub rage. It sure aint "Imagine"! jdf 

----- Original Message -----

From: "Matthew Jordan" <matthewjorda at gmail.com> 
To: "John Milton Discussion List" <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu> 
Sent: Monday, 14 April, 2014 15:09:26 
Subject: Re: [Milton-L] seizing | seizing; sex before and after 


True, The Beatles; but the rough Beatles with Stones-envy of much of the White Album... 




On 22 March 2013 22:53, Neil Forsyth < neil.forsyth at unil.ch > wrote: 



Beatles, Richard. Sorry for the pedantry. 


Neil Forsyth 
neil.forsyth at unil.ch 







On Mar 22, 2013, at 9:03 PM, Richard A. Strier wrote: 

<blockquote>


I don't see why the shady bank is any "nastier" than the bower. Both are rather romantic. It's not like the Rolling Stones wanting to "D' do it in the road." 



RS 


From: milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu [ milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu ] on behalf of John K Leonard [ jleonard at uwo.ca ] 
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 2:57 PM 
To: John Milton Discussion List 
Subject: Re: [Milton-L] seizing | seizing; sex before and after 




Well, there is one difference. Before the Fall, Adam and Eve make love in the bower; after, they do it in the big outdoors--'a shady bank'. Whether this is a change for the worse is, of course, a moot point. Some might argue that sex is all the better for having a tang of gnostic gnastiness. But there is a change. 

JL 
On 03/22/13, "Richard A. Strier" < rastrier at uchicago.edu > wrote: 
<blockquote>

I've never been convinced by all the thousands of words written about the (supposed) difference between the sex before and after. I think it's unnecessary moralism. Clearly the repetition of the verb could be read differently. I don't see that sex after is any dirtier or nastier than sex before. 

RS 



________________________________________ 
From: milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu [ milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu ] on behalf of srevard at siue.edu [ srevard at siue.edu ] 
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 2:17 PM 
To: John Milton Discussion List 
Subject: Re: [Milton-L] seizing | seizing 

Thanks,good reach: before, a gentle loving taking of her hand, eager but not 
necessarily intrusive or forcible--after eating the fruit, a kind of drunken 
forceful taking of the hand to draw her off to orgiastic coupling. Before, Adam 
is in awe but understands God has provided him a companion and he knows this 
will include what is later called marriage, which (whatever 17th century prudes 
tried to argue) would mean a rapturous "wedding night" during which they did not 
turn from each other. After, like Satan and Sin, a rushing off to get at it. 
Satan did not need to grab, he knew how to inveigle--rape and yet Sin complied. 
Still, the result of Satan's coupling with Sin was a violent painful 
transformation into bestial form. After the Fall, humans are halfway to devilish 
but not all devils. Their coupling will raise Cain, of course. 


Quoting JD Fleming < jfleming at sfu.ca >: 

> Always glad to get a chance to think about this issue: 
> 
> 
> 4.488-9 
> "thy gentle hand | Seized mine" 
> 
> 
> 9.1037 
> "Her hand he seized" 
> 
> 
> It is not the case, as one might think, that before the Fall there is no 
> seizing, and that such actions start after. Rather, it is the case that 
> before the Fall, seizing is gentle. *But it's precisely seizing that is 
> gentle*: pleasant, licit, consistent with the moral law. 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> James Dougal Fleming 
> Associate Professor and Undergraduate Chair 
> Department of English 
> Simon Fraser University 
> 778-782-4713 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 



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</blockquote>


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</blockquote>


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-- 

J ames Dougal Fleming 
Associate Professor 
Department of English 
Simon Fraser University 
778-782-4713 


Burnaby -- British Columbia -- Canada. 



And the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. Rev.22:3. 


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