[Milton-L] seizing | seizing; sex before and after

Matthew Jordan matthewjorda at gmail.com
Mon Apr 14 18:09:26 EDT 2014


True, The Beatles; but the rough Beatles with Stones-envy of much of the
White Album...


On 22 March 2013 22:53, Neil Forsyth <neil.forsyth at unil.ch> wrote:

> Beatles, Richard. Sorry for the pedantry.
>
> Neil Forsyth
> neil.forsyth at unil.ch
>
>
>
> On Mar 22, 2013, at 9:03 PM, Richard A. Strier wrote:
>
> I don't see why the shady bank is any "nastier" than the bower.  Both are
> rather romantic.  It's not like the Rolling Stones wanting to "D' do it in
> the road."
>
> RS
> ------------------------------
> *From:* milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu [
> milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu] on behalf of John K Leonard [
> jleonard at uwo.ca]
> *Sent:* Friday, March 22, 2013 2:57 PM
> *To:* John Milton Discussion List
> *Subject:* Re: [Milton-L] seizing | seizing; sex before and after
>
> Well, there is one difference. Before the Fall, Adam and Eve make love in
> the bower; after, they do it in the big outdoors--'a shady bank'. Whether
> this is a change for the worse is, of course, a moot point. Some might
> argue that sex is all the better for having a tang of gnostic gnastiness.
> But there is a change.
>
> JL
>
> On 03/22/13, *"Richard A. Strier" *<rastrier at uchicago.edu> wrote:
>
> I've never been convinced by all the thousands of words written about the
> (supposed) difference between the sex before and after.  I think it's
> unnecessary moralism.  Clearly the repetition of the verb could be read
> differently.  I don't see that sex after is any dirtier or nastier than sex
> before.
>
> RS
>
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu [
> milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu] on behalf of srevard at siue.edu [
> srevard at siue.edu]
> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 2:17 PM
> To: John Milton Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] seizing | seizing
>
> Thanks,good reach:  before, a gentle loving taking of her hand, eager but
> not
> necessarily intrusive or forcible--after eating the fruit, a kind of
> drunken
> forceful taking of the hand to draw her off to orgiastic coupling.
> Before, Adam
> is in awe but understands God has provided him a companion and he knows
> this
> will include what is later called marriage, which (whatever 17th century
> prudes
> tried to argue) would mean a rapturous "wedding night" during which they
> did not
> turn from each other.  After, like Satan and Sin, a rushing off to get at
> it.
> Satan did not need to grab, he knew how to inveigle--rape and yet Sin
> complied.
> Still, the result of Satan's coupling with Sin was a violent painful
> transformation into bestial form. After the Fall, humans are halfway to
> devilish
> but not all devils. Their coupling will raise Cain, of course.
>
>
> Quoting JD Fleming <jfleming at sfu.ca>:
>
> > Always glad to get a chance to think about this issue:
> >
> >
> > 4.488-9
> > "thy gentle hand | Seized mine"
> >
> >
> > 9.1037
> > "Her hand he seized"
> >
> >
> > It is not the case, as one might think, that before the Fall there is no
> > seizing, and that such actions start after. Rather, it is the case that
> > before the Fall, seizing is gentle. *But it's precisely seizing that is
> > gentle*: pleasant, licit, consistent with the moral law.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > James Dougal Fleming
> > Associate Professor and Undergraduate Chair
> > Department of English
> > Simon Fraser University
> > 778-782-4713
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------
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