[Milton-L] textbook suggestions? literature of the English civil wars

rumrichj rumrichj at gmail.com
Sun Sep 29 13:38:15 EDT 2013


Without wishing to seem to be pumping Chaplin's and my edition, I want to note that most of Mario's work on the Religious Poets is incorporated into Norton's 17th-Century British Poetry anthology, and it was thoroughly updated for that edition largely by Mario himself (for which Mario knows we are grateful and, even better, collegially bound--between covers no less).  The textual improvements he established for the more recent edition, especially to the texts of Herbert's poetry, add up to a significant plus for the volume and indicate to me at least that his contributions are not obsolete but continuing and readily available in a useful current and still relatively inexpensive edition.  The broader basis of the new edition (I think) permits and encourages an understanding of "religious" poetry as more pervasive and culturally evocative than the label ordinarily is taken to mean.  That was at least our notion both going into the project and coming out.

With all good wishes, Mario, stored up on purpose.

John



> On Sep 29, 2013, at 10:23 AM, Hannibal Hamlin <hamlin.hannibal at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Dear Mario,
>  
> I'm terribly embarrassed at having caused you any discomfort. The danger of email is that one (or, I guess, I) fires them out without properly considering who may receive them. In no way did I intend to disparage your work or (really) your anthology. Indeed, my main complaint was the lack of available anthologies of 16th-17th c. religious poetry, and, since yours is really the only one available, I should hardly have objected to it. And I certainly wouldn't criticize the inclusion of Herbert, Crashaw, Vaughan, Marvell, Traherne -- all excellent and essential of course. I should have been more reasonable in my remarks. Of course, everything -- including all of us -- grows older with time. That doesn't mean that we become obsolete, but that, from time to time, such things as anthologies need to be reconsidered, revised, updated. Yet even this might not necessarily mean that each of us would find the perfect anthology for the course we wished to teach. One of us would want this poet included, another a different one. I wanted Donne, Southwell, and some women poets, but another teacher might not have. Or of course one can supplement the anthology in different ways: with other books, photocopies, online texts.
>  
> My general point about the lack (or availability) of anthologies of this or that shaping our teaching holds, I think, but my unconsidered, and largely unjustified, disparagement of your anthology was unwarranted. My sincere apologies. Please don't recede!
>  
> Hannibal
>  
>  
>  
>  
> 
> 
>> On Sat, Sep 28, 2013 at 6:11 PM, Mario A. DiCesare <dicesare1 at mindspring.com> wrote:
>> Dear Hannibal Hanlin,
>> 
>> Many years ago, I corresponded with, and then finally met, a hero of mine, a Latin professor who had brilliantly and even seductively edited the first, second, and fourth books of Vergil's Aeneid, Roland Austin.  My wife and I stayed with Roland and his hotblooded Scottish wife in their home in the Cotswolds. I recall that once, when we were driving to a pub for lunch, Roland said was that he felt very much like a back number.   Your comment about my anthology of Herbert and the 17c. religious poets being "old" made me wonder if, despite my somewhat advanced age (I'm 85) I should now consider myself a back number and just recede from public or any other view.  I don't quite understand the point about my anthology being "old" though the observation that it leaves out women is  justified and embarrassing.
>> 
>> In the end, I agree fully that new anthologies should be edited.  The publishers' ways of getting them out, making their money, and letting them lapse (Norton not one of these) is disheartending, to say the least.
>> 
>> Mario
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 9/28/2013 4:58 PM, Hannibal Hamlin wrote:
>>> It is interesting, isn't it, the extent to which what we teach, perhaps even work on, is shaped by such a contingency as the availability of texts and anthologies. I've run into this problem many times. There used to be a number of anthologies of pastoral poetry, for instance, including one by Frank Kermode. None remain in print. Does that mean there is no longer any interest in pastoral? Surely not. I taught a course on the religious lyric last spring and again, no decent anthology available. There's the Norton George Herbert and 17th c, Religious Poets, but it's old, it leaves out Donne and Milton (presumably in order not to overlap with other Nortons), as well as many others, including Southwell (not 17th c. of course, though constantly available in print), Constable and Alabaster, and women like An Collins and "Eliza." Ah well.
>>>  
>>> I'd encourage Brendan and anyone else inclined to edit new anthologies that might serve us better.
>>>  
>>> Hannibal
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Sep 27, 2013 at 12:12 PM, Brendan Prawdzik <brendanprawdzik at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Thank you all for those great suggestions!
>>>>  
>>>> Sara, those pointers alerted me to texts that would be important to include, several of which I had not considered.
>>>>  
>>>> Lara, I have indeed used the Norton Seventeenth-Century anthology, and you're right, it's good teaching text and it's affordable.  I will likely use it and then add some handouts to include prose and outliers.
>>>>  
>>>> Michael: thanks for those suggestions.  Donne!  I have not read some of these but they seem very much to-the-point.
>>>> 
>>>> Just fyi, other texts worthy of inclusion:
>>>>  
>>>> Much of Herrick's poetry: "Argument of His Book" and "Corinna's Going A'Maying" are favorites.  Herbert's "Church Windows" is an excellent idea.  A few others by Herbert might fit.  Obviously, Milton.  Lovelace.  Cowley. Marvell! -- take your pick.  Horatian Ode, "First Anniversary," Death of Buckingham, Nymph Complaining!, The Mower poems, even.  Hobbes would be great.  Love the James I idea.  Some satirical playlets.  Parliamentary order closing the playhouses.  Philip's double-death of Charles.  Broadsides.  Wither?  Leveller, Digger prose.  Denham's "Cooper's Hill" (Appleton?).  D'Avenant Siege of Rhodes might be a bit boring but would tie some things together.  Carew's Coelum Britannicum followed by Milton's Mask.  Even a glimpse of the 1637 Book of Common Prayer paired with a glimpse of the 1645 Directory of Publike Worship.
>>>>  
>>>> In short, so much to choose from.  I was hoping father fondly that there would be a textbook covering much of this material.  But alas, I'll be using many handouts (with all the copyright fun re: the modern editions). 
>>>>  
>>>> Maybe we need such a text.  Anyone interested in editing one with me?
>>>> 
>>>> Best to all and happy weekend,
>>>>  
>>>> Brendan
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Fri, Sep 27, 2013 at 10:29 AM, Lara Dodds <LDodds at english.msstate.edu> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Have you looked at the Norton Critical editions _Seventeenth-Century British Poetry: 1603-1660_ ed. Rumrich and Chaplin. It's accessible, affordable, and I've found it to be fairly flexible for teaching 17th-C lit. courses on several different themes. It could be combined effectively with the prose anthology Sara suggested.
>>>>>  
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> Lara
>>>>> 
>>>>>  
>>>>>  
>>>>> Dr. Lara A Dodds
>>>>> Associate Professor and Graduate Coordinator
>>>>> English Department
>>>>> Mississippi State University
>>>>> 
>>>>> Phone: 662-325-2354
>>>>>  
>>>>> The Literary Invention of Margaret Cavendish
>>>>>  
>>>>> http://www.dupress.duq.edu/products/religiousstudies7-cloth
>>>>> >>> "J. Michael Gillum" <mgillum at ret.unca.edu> 9/27/2013 9:34 AM >>>
>>>>> I don't have a book to suggest, but some political poems to throw in, besides the obvious Multon, Marvell, and Lovelace:
>>>>> 
>>>>> -James I, sonnet prefatory to Basilikon Doron
>>>>> -Donne, "Show me, dear Christ"
>>>>> -Herbert,"The British Church," "The Windows."
>>>>> -Wm. Drummond of Hawthornden, epigram on Pym
>>>>> -Herrick, epigrams "Twixt Kings and Subjects," "Twixt Kings and Tyrants," "Preposterous is that government," "Tis liberty to serve one lord"
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 7:29 PM, Sara van den Berg <vandens at slu.edu> wrote:
>>>>>> You might consider including The Grand Quarrel: Women's Memoirs of the English Civil War, edited by Roger Hudson. This anthology includes memoirs by Lucy Hutchinson, Margaret Cavendish, Anne Halkett, Anne Fanshawe, Alice Thornton, and Brilliana Harley. Another possibility would be Her Own Life: Autobiographical Writings by 17th-century Englishwomen, edited by Elspeth Graham et al. That includes selections by Anna Trapnel, Hannah Allen, Quaker women, and others. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Sara van den Berg
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 2:17 PM, Brendan Prawdzik <brendanprawdzik at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>> Next semester I'll be co-teaching a course on History and Literature of the English Civil War[s]. I've been looking for a literary anthology on this particular time period and have not come across anything so narrowly focused. (Restoration Lit can be covered, too. I'm looking for mostly poetry but also some prose.) I'm wondering if any of you teachers have a recommendation. Of course I can patch together a reader but would rather work through a textbook.
>>>>>>> Many thanks,
>>>>>>> Brendan
>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>> 
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>>>>> 
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>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Hannibal Hamlin
>>> Associate Professor of English
>>> Author of The Bible in Shakespeare, now available through all good bookshops, or direct from Oxford University Press at http://ukcatalogue.oup.com/product/9780199677610.do
>>> Editor, Reformation
>>> The Ohio State University
>>> 164 West 17th Ave., 421 Denney Hall
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>>> 
>>> 
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>> 
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> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Hannibal Hamlin
> Associate Professor of English
> Author of The Bible in Shakespeare, now available through all good bookshops, or direct from Oxford University Press at http://ukcatalogue.oup.com/product/9780199677610.do
> Editor, Reformation
> The Ohio State University
> 164 West 17th Ave., 421 Denney Hall
> Columbus, OH 43210-1340
> hamlin.22 at osu.edu/
> hamlin.hannibal at gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
> Milton-L mailing list
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