[Milton-L] Milton-L Digest, Vol 82, Issue 12

Roy Flannagan royflannagan at gmail.com
Sun Sep 15 12:07:51 EDT 2013


This post is cluttered enough already with the debris of the current
listserv software, but . . . .

Even now in the U.S. as well as in the U.K. pronunciation tends to confuse
the way *then *vs. *than *is spelled, and the compositors of 1667 or of
1674 might well have carried their confusion into the spelling of the word.
 If they are like most of my students over the years, they might not have
understood the difference in English usage between *then *and *than*.  *Then
*is the time marker, usually, and *than *is the marker of comparison.

In my editions of *Paradise Lost*, the choice between then and than could
for any usage of the word be a matter of copy text rather than spelling
preferences, especially those of the blind Milton, who never saw any proof
from from his publisher and who never "read copy" on texts published after
he went blind.  If I had been following 1667, I might have printed exactly
what the page said, but if I were following 1674 I would likely have
followed that edition's usage, especially since the word, with either
meaning, could have been spelled either way.

Any editor who decided to modernize Milton's spelling throughout an edition
of poetry or prose published in Milton's lifetime might well make his or
her decision based on modern usage (then as time-marker, than as
comparison-market).  A modernized text is more convenient for a modern
student, because it helps close the cultural gap between Milton's time and
the present,  A so-called old-spelling text forces the student to think in
terms of what a text meant, as a cultural artifact, in 1667 or 1674.

Roy Flannagan

Roy


On Sun, Sep 15, 2013 at 11:39 AM, <milton-l-request at lists.richmond.edu>wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Further CFP: The Art of Reading in the Middle Ages and
>       Renaissance, 28-31 August 2014, Stellenbosch, South Africa
>       (Leonie Viljoen)
>    2. "then" not "[then]" (John K Leonard)
>    3. Re: "then" not "[then]" (Nancy Charlton)
>    4. Re: "then" not "[then]" (J. Michael Gillum)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 12:24:56 +0200
> From: "Leonie Viljoen" <viljol at telkomsa.net>
> To: <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
> Subject: [Milton-L] Further CFP: The Art of Reading in the Middle Ages
>         and     Renaissance, 28-31 August 2014, Stellenbosch, South Africa
> Message-ID: <021501ceb1fd$d9a737e0$8cf5a7a0$@net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Further Call for Proposals
>
> The Art of Reading in the Middle Ages and Renaissance
>
> 28-31 August 2014, Stellenbosch, South Africa
>
> Keynote Address: Professor Henry Woudhuysen, Lincoln College, University of
> Oxford
>
> Deadline for proposals: 31 January 2014
>
> Convener:  P <mailto:dscott-macnab at uj.ac.za> rofessor David Scott-Macnab
> <mailto:dscott-macnab at uj.ac.za>
>
> The 22nd Biennial Conference of the Southern African Society for Medieval
> and Renaissance Studies will be held at Mont Fleur, Stellenbosch, South
> Africa, on 28-31 August 2014. The conference theme is 'The Art of Reading
> in
> the Middle Ages and Renaissance'. In an effort to facilitate a
> wide-ranging,
> interdisciplinary conversation, we encourage scholars working in any
> discipline to submit abstracts addressing this theme.
>
> For information about previous conferences and the conference venue, please
> go to the http://sasmars21stbiennialconference.blogspot.com/.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Leonie Viljoen
>
>
>
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> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 09:37:13 -0400
> From: John K Leonard <jleonard at uwo.ca>
> To: John Milton Discussion List <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
> Subject: [Milton-L] "then" not "[then]"
> Message-ID: <7570d86c15b5c.52357fc9 at uwo.ca>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Emendation? It is true that "then" in 10.827 does not appear in the first
> edition (1667), but it does appear in the second (1674), so a case can be
> made for seeing it as Milton's correction of a printer's error rather than
> a Bentleyan emendation of an expressive omission.
>
> John Leonard
>
> On 09/15/13, Nancy Charlton <charltonwordorder1 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  I was thinking the same thing, except I would liken it to a
> quarter-rest in music, with perhaps a fermata on "me". This to me has
> better rhetorical logic, particularly if the line is left stark without the
> emendation "then."
> >
> >
> > Nancy Charlton
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On Sep 14, 2013, at 8:32 PM, "Salwa Khoddam" <skhoddam at cox.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > >     But how can these nine-syllable lines be scanned as unmetrical??
> If we include pauses when they are spoken, it seems to me they scan quite
> regularly. For instance, a pause after the question mark in this line
> (10.827).
> > > Salwa
> > > Salwa Khoddam PhD
> > > Professor of English Emerita
> > > Oklahoma City University
> > > skhoddam at cox.net
> > >
> > > >  ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Gregory Machacek <Gregory.Machacek at marist.edu>
> > > > To: John Milton Discussion List <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
> > > > Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 5:32 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Query on scansion
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  With me? How can they [then] acquitted stand (10.827)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Greg Machacek
> > > > Professor of English
> > > > Marist College
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu wrote: -----  To: John
> Milton Discussion List <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
> > > > From: JCarl Bellinger
> > > > Sent by: milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu
> > > > Date: 09/14/2013 04:12PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Query on scansion
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I don't recall who made the observation but a line of just nine
> syllables, a truncated line, appears just where Eve suggests to Adam they
> might choose to remain childless in order to limit to their own persons the
> Woe otherwise destined now for all generations of their progeny.
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps someone could locate the line (I'm away from my desk at the
> moment)...
> > > > I think that not a few editions of PL have rejected the nine
> syllable line as unmetrical, which it most certainly is, and have replaced
> it with a line that will scan.
> > > > -Carl
> > > >
> > > >  _______________________________________________
> > > > Milton-L mailing list
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> http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l
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> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > > Milton-L at lists.richmond.edu
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 07:57:40 -0700
> From: Nancy Charlton <charltonwordorder1 at gmail.com>
> To: John Milton Discussion List <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] "then" not "[then]"
> Message-ID: <E31EF7C3-479A-45CD-9D88-42A3FA402DBF at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Yes, that is certainly possible. I have no access to the 1667, so assumed
> that [then] in brackets was an emendation. If it looks like a duck...
>
> Nancy Charlton
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 15, 2013, at 6:37 AM, John K Leonard <jleonard at uwo.ca> wrote:
>
> > Emendation? It is true that "then" in 10.827 does not appear in the
> first edition (1667), but it does appear in the second (1674), so a case
> can be made for seeing it as Milton's correction of a printer's error
> rather than a Bentleyan emendation of an expressive omission.
> >
> > John Leonard
> >
> > On 09/15/13, Nancy Charlton <charltonwordorder1 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> I was thinking the same thing, except I would liken it to a
> quarter-rest in music, with perhaps a fermata on "me". This to me has
> better rhetorical logic, particularly if the line is left stark without the
> emendation "then."
> >>
> >> Nancy Charlton
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >> On Sep 14, 2013, at 8:32 PM, "Salwa Khoddam" <skhoddam at cox.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> But how can these nine-syllable lines be scanned as unmetrical?? If we
> include pauses when they are spoken, it seems to me they scan quite
> regularly. For instance, a pause after the question mark in this line
> (10.827).
> >>> Salwa
> >>> Salwa Khoddam PhD
> >>> Professor of English Emerita
> >>> Oklahoma City University
> >>> skhoddam at cox.net
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: Gregory Machacek
> >>> To: John Milton Discussion List
> >>> Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 5:32 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Query on scansion
> >>>
> >>> With me? How can they [then] acquitted stand (10.827)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Greg Machacek
> >>> Professor of English
> >>> Marist College
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu wrote: -----
> >>> To: John Milton Discussion List <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
> >>> From: JCarl Bellinger
> >>> Sent by: milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu
> >>> Date: 09/14/2013 04:12PM
> >>> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Query on scansion
> >>>
> >>> I don't recall who made the observation but a line of just nine
> syllables, a truncated line, appears just where Eve suggests to Adam they
> might choose to remain childless in order to limit to their own persons the
> Woe otherwise destined now for all generations of their progeny.
> >>>
> >>> Perhaps someone could locate the line (I'm away from my desk at the
> moment)...
> >>> I think that not a few editions of PL have rejected the nine syllable
> line as unmetrical, which it most certainly is, and have replaced it with a
> line that will scan.
> >>> -Carl
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Milton-L mailing list
> >>> Milton-L at lists.richmond.edu
> >>> Manage your list membership and access list archives at
> http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l
> >>>
> >>> Milton-L web site: http://johnmilton.org/
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Milton-L mailing list
> >>> Milton-L at lists.richmond.edu
> >>> Manage your list membership and access list archives at
> http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l
> >>>
> >>> Milton-L web site: http://johnmilton.org/
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Milton-L mailing list
> >>> Milton-L at lists.richmond.edu
> >>> Manage your list membership and access list archives at
> http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l
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> >>> Milton-L web site: http://johnmilton.org/
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Milton-L mailing list
> > Milton-L at lists.richmond.edu
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> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 11:39:12 -0400
> From: "J. Michael Gillum" <mgillum at ret.unca.edu>
> To: John Milton Discussion List <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] "then" not "[then]"
> Message-ID:
>         <CAAfO+0p+bnyg9QX3nBxtNX=
> YG3jWkZNaYGthezgMGs5EzsqBjg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Syllable count is the most salient feature in early modern English metric
> theory. Sidney names the meters as "our line of ten syllables," "our line
> of eleven syllables" etc. Many writers did not have a clear conceptual
> grasp (as opposed to a functional grasp) of metrical accent, but anybody
> can count syllables, as Pope complains. It is overwhelmingly probable that
> the printer dropped a word when setting the "they then" line first edition
> and that Milton would have chosen to correct it in an epic (as opposed to
> dramatic) text. So I agree with John that we should not consider this to be
> an emendation.
>
> As to the supposed twelve-syllable lines-- "Ta dum ta dum ta dum ta dum
> society" would be a hexameter in a hexameter context, or a pentameter in a
> pentameter context. The last syllable would be (or count as) a weak sixth
> beat in the hexameter, or a doesn't-count extra offbeat (feminine ending)
> in the pentameter. "Society" would count as four syllables in the hexameter
> and three syllables in the pentameter, by actual or theoretical elision of
> I and E. In the context of PL, the line is a pentameter. Obviously, the
> "satiety" line is the same case.
>
>
> On Sun, Sep 15, 2013 at 10:57 AM, Nancy Charlton <
> charltonwordorder1 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Yes, that is certainly possible. I have no access to the 1667, so assumed
> > that [then] in brackets was an emendation. If it looks like a duck...
> >
> > Nancy Charlton
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On Sep 15, 2013, at 6:37 AM, John K Leonard <jleonard at uwo.ca> wrote:
> >
> > Emendation? It is true that "then" in 10.827 does not appear in the first
> > edition (1667), but it does appear in the second (1674), so a case can be
> > made for seeing it as Milton's correction of a printer's error rather
> than
> > a Bentleyan emendation of an expressive omission.
> >
> > John Leonard
> >
> > On 09/15/13, *Nancy Charlton *<charltonwordorder1 at gmail.com> wrote:**
> >
> >     I was thinking the same thing, except I would liken it to a
> > quarter-rest in music, with perhaps a fermata on "me". This to me has
> > better rhetorical logic, particularly if the line is left stark without
> the
> > emendation "then."
> >
> > Nancy Charlton
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On Sep 14, 2013, at 8:32 PM, "Salwa Khoddam" <skhoddam at cox.net> wrote:
> >
> >  But how can these nine-syllable lines be scanned as unmetrical?? If we
> > include pauses when they are spoken, it seems to me they scan quite
> > regularly. For instance, a pause after the question mark in this line
> > (10.827).
> > Salwa
> > Salwa Khoddam PhD
> > Professor of English Emerita
> > Oklahoma City University
> > skhoddam at cox.net
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > *From:* Gregory Machacek <Gregory.Machacek at marist.edu>
> > *To:* John Milton Discussion List <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
> > *Sent:* Saturday, September 14, 2013 5:32 PM
> > *Subject:* Re: [Milton-L] Query on scansion
> >
> > With me? How can they [then] acquitted stand (10.827)
> >
> >
> >
> > Greg Machacek
> > Professor of English
> > Marist College
> >
> >
> > -----milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu wrote: -----
> > To: John Milton Discussion List <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
> > From: JCarl Bellinger **
> > Sent by: milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu
> > Date: 09/14/2013 04:12PM
> > Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Query on scansion
> >
> > I don't recall who made the observation but a line of just nine
> syllables,
> > a truncated line, appears just where Eve suggests to Adam they might
> choose
> > to remain childless in order to limit to their own persons the Woe
> > otherwise destined now for all generations of their progeny.
> >
> > Perhaps someone could locate the line (I'm away from my desk at the
> > moment)...
> > I think that not a few editions of PL have rejected the nine syllable
> line
> > as unmetrical, which it most certainly is, and have replaced it with a
> line
> > that will scan.
> > -Carl
> > _______________________________________________
> > Milton-L mailing list
> > Milton-L at lists.richmond.edu
> > Manage your list membership and access list archives at
> > http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l
> >
> > Milton-L web site: http://johnmilton.org/
> > **
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Milton-L mailing list
> > Milton-L at lists.richmond.edu
> > Manage your list membership and access list archives at
> > http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l
> >
> > Milton-L web site: http://johnmilton.org/
> >
> >  _______________________________________________
> > Milton-L mailing list
> > Milton-L at lists.richmond.edu
> > Manage your list membership and access list archives at
> > http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l
> >
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> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Milton-L mailing list
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> > http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l
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> >
> >
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