[Milton-L] Bk 3 and Jeffrey Shoulson's link

Horace Jeffery Hodges horacejeffery at gmail.com
Sun Oct 27 16:44:44 EDT 2013


Michael Bryson asked:

"And is it really so hard to imagine?"

It can't be so hard since even I managed to imagine it . . . but defending
it? That's the hard part . . .

Jeffery Hodges

Ewha Womans University
Seoul, South Korea


Novella: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00E18KW0K (*The Bottomless Bottle of Beer
*)


Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Bottomless-Bottle-of-Beer/204064649770035
 (*The Bottomless Bottle of Beer*)

Blog: http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/ (*Gypsy Scholar*)


Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in the Gospel of John and Gnostic
Texts"


Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University


Home Address:


Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
Gunyoung Apt. 102-204
Sangbong-dong 1
Jungnang-gu
Seoul 131-771
South Korea


On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 5:37 AM, Bryson, Michael E
<michael.bryson at csun.edu>wrote:

> "Unless he's more heretical than previously imagined..."
>
> Indeed. And is it really so hard to imagine? If so, why?
>
> "Milton surely doesn't mean that sin gets you into Hell and more sin can
> get you out!"
>
> Fascinating idea. Blakean in its suggestion of a road of excess, and drawn
> from a scene written by a poet/revolutionary who was hardly a model of
> moderation. Not really so hard to imagine, I think.
>
> Michael Bryson
>
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Horace Jeffery Hodges <horacejeffery at gmail.com>
> Date: 10/27/2013 12:53 PM (GMT-08:00)
> To: John Milton Discussion List <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Bk 3 and Jeffrey Shoulson's link
>
>
> Maybe the solution is 'stupid' because there is no solution. At best,
> Milton can note that sin is the 'key' to entering Hell, so if sin can open
> the gates to admit sinners, then . . . but the allegory breaks down because
> Milton surely doesn't mean that sin gets you into Hell and more sin can get
> you out!
>
> Unless he's more heretical than previously imagined . . .
>
> Jeffery Hodges
>
>
> Ewha Womans University
> Seoul, South Korea
>
>
> Novella: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00E18KW0K (*The Bottomless Bottle of
> Beer*)
>
>
> Facebook:
> https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Bottomless-Bottle-of-Beer/204064649770035
>  (*The Bottomless Bottle of Beer*)
>
> Blog: http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/ (*Gypsy Scholar*)
>
>
> Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in the Gospel of John and Gnostic
> Texts"
>
>
> Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
> M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
> B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University
>
>
> Home Address:
>
>
> Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
> Gunyoung Apt. 102-204
> Sangbong-dong 1
> Jungnang-gu
> Seoul 131-771
> South Korea
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 4:39 AM, James Rovira <jamesrovira at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Louis --
>>
>> Thanks very much for the response. I don't mean to call the entire
>> episode stupid. Remember, I did take pleasure in it as well. I only meant
>> to claim that its function as an explanation of how Satan gets out of Hell
>> is rather stupid. Elsewhere in PL Milton seems to be aware of conceptual
>> problems associated with his narrative, such as the guilt of the snake, and
>> he addresses them. We may or may not be satisfied with his solutions, but
>> at least he offers them. I've just reread the Sin and Death episode, and I
>> don't see a solution to what I perceive as a conceptual failing offered
>> here, but I do still take pleasure in the imaginative qualities of the
>> episode. I can see how an episode such as this one can inspire Blake and
>> how it would make for great film.
>>
>> Here's another way that I would rephrase the problem that I see with this
>> part of the narrative: Is it credible that the God of PL couldn't see this
>> coming?
>>
>> SIN:
>>
>> The key of this infernal Pit by due, [ 850 ]
>> And by command of Heav'ns all-powerful King
>> I keep, by him forbidden to unlock
>> These Adamantine Gates; against all force
>> Death ready stands to interpose his dart,
>> Fearless to be o'rmatcht by living might. [ 855 ]
>> But what ow I to his commands above
>> Who hates me, and hath hither thrust me down
>> Into this gloom of Tartarus profound,
>> To sit in hateful Office here confin'd,
>> Inhabitant of Heav'n, and heav'nlie-born, [ 860 ]
>> Here in perpetual agonie and pain,
>> With terrors and with clamors compasst round
>> Of mine own brood, that on my bowels feed:
>> Thou [SATAN] art my Father, thou my Author, thou
>> My being gav'st me; whom should I obey [ 865 ]
>> But thee, whom follow? thou wilt bring me soon
>> To that new world of light and bliss, among
>> The Gods who live at ease, where I shall Reign
>> At thy right hand voluptuous, as beseems
>> Thy daughter and thy darling, without end. [ 870 ]
>>
>> Of course Sin feels more loyalty to Satan than to God. Do we need to be
>> God to figure that out?
>>
>> I'm only offering one criticism of one feature of the episode, though. I
>> don't mean for my claim here to exhaust everything important and
>> interesting that can be said about the episode, which I agree would be
>> mistaken to attempt. I would say in fact that even the failure is
>> instructive, perhaps revealing something about attitudes towards authority
>> and towards rebellion. If I were to develop my ideas along those lines, I
>> may be led to say something rather interesting about this episode, but that
>> wouldn't mean that the episode wasn't flawed: my (hopefully) interesting
>> remarks would only be possible because of the flaw.
>>
>> Now suppose I took back my language calling this feature of the episode
>> stupid and only suggested that I see a serious conceptual problem in terms
>> of narrative development? Milton gives Sin the keys to the gates of Hell in
>> keeping with the allegory, but in the process makes his God look rather
>> ridiculous because Sin then rather predictably lets Satan go. How might you
>> respond to that criticism? I realize I should reread Bk 3 as well, but I
>> haven't yet.
>>
>> Jim R
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Milton-L mailing list
>> Milton-L at lists.richmond.edu
>> Manage your list membership and access list archives at
>> http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l
>>
>> Milton-L web site: http://johnmilton.org/
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Milton-L mailing list
> Milton-L at lists.richmond.edu
> Manage your list membership and access list archives at
> http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l
>
> Milton-L web site: http://johnmilton.org/
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.richmond.edu/pipermail/milton-l/attachments/20131028/3a31d7a8/attachment.html>


More information about the Milton-L mailing list