[Milton-L] Milton-L Digest, Vol 72, Issue 6

Matthew Jordan matthewjorda at gmail.com
Mon Nov 19 07:20:04 EST 2012


Thanks, Jameela. It is very tempting!

On 19 Nov 2012, at 12:12, Jameela Lares wrote:

> What a great research idea, Matthew!  A solid project that could be carried out in Vienna amidst many pastries and much _Gemütlichkeit_. You sound already as busy as the rest of us, but I wish you'd go for it.  
> 
> Jameela Lares
> Professor of English
> The University of Southern Mississippi
> 118 College Drive, #5037
> Hattiesburg, MS  39406-0001
> 601 266-4319 ofc
> 601 266-5757 fax
> ________________________________________
> From: milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu [milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu] on behalf of Matthew Jordan [matthewjorda at gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 12:02 AM
> To: John Milton Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Milton-L Digest, Vol 72, Issue 6
> 
> Thanks, Jim, Jameela.
> 
> Vienna of the lC19-eC20 was, of course, an extraordinary intellectual hothouse, relatively small and full of coffee-houses and the like -  not unlike, I fancy, Milton's London. If Milton were relatively common currency among intellectuals there it might make for a fascinating book. A basis for starting out might be (one of the books I may never be able to fit into my life), Wittgenstein's Vienna; and Wittgenstein's Vienna Revisited, by Allan Janik and Stephen Toulmin.
> 
> Idly googling, with the hunch that something would come up for Wittgenstein + Milton (if nothing else because W famously had a spat with Leavis about what on earth the latter was talking about) I came across this, cited in Ray Monk, Wittgenstein: The Duty of Genius 568: [actually Amazon won't let me lift the longish text, but it includes the lines, regarding his problems with the idea of Shakespeare's greatness....]: "It takes the authority of a Milton to really convince me. I take it for granted that he was incorruptible." - the words of a man to whom Milton was a deeply familiar cultural "touchstone"? . . .
> 
> Best
> 
> Matt
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 18 November 2012 22:25, Jameela Lares <Jameela.Lares at usm.edu<mailto:Jameela.Lares at usm.edu>> wrote:
> I'm interested!  I've made a note of it.  Thanks.
> 
> Jameela Lares
> Professor of English
> The University of Southern Mississippi
> 118 College Drive, #5037
> Hattiesburg, MS  39406-0001
> 601 266-4319 ofc
> 601 266-5757 fax
> ________________________________________
> From: milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu<mailto:milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu> [milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu<mailto:milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu>] on behalf of Matthew Jordan [matthewjorda at gmail.com<mailto:matthewjorda at gmail.com>]
> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2012 3:44 PM
> To: John Milton Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Milton-L Digest, Vol 72, Issue 6
> 
> Btw, for anyone interested in the reference, it's the Standard Edition of Freud Vol 11: 245.
> 
> Matt
> 
> On 18 Nov 2012, at 18:26, Carrol Cox wrote:
> 
>> Adam & Eve often appeared  in cartoons in popular magazines. In fact such
>> cartoons probably have been a major source of popular conceptions of Eden.
>> 
>> Carrol
>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu<mailto:milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu> [mailto:milton-l-<mailto:milton-l->
>>> bounces at lists.richmond.edu<mailto:bounces at lists.richmond.edu>] On Behalf Of James Rovira
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2012 9:37 AM
>>> To: John Milton Discussion List
>>> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Milton-L Digest, Vol 72, Issue 6
>>> 
>>> Klimt was Austrian... particularly, Viennese.  The Eve painting was among
>> his very
>>> last, as he died before he could finish it.  He doesn't do Biblical
>> subjects very often
>>> at all -- there's Judith and the Head of Holofernes, this one, and Judith
>> II that
>>> seem to be explicitly about Biblical subjects.  The Klimt website seems
>> more
>>> inclined to attribute influence to his models themselves; it could be this
>> subject
>>> was called Eve only because of her wide hips (mother of all the living)
>> and long,
>>> flowing hair.  He had been attacked for "pornography" by critics in his
>> own
>>> country -- retreating Nazis destroyed his three faculty paintings over 20
>> years
>>> after his death -- so it could be he chose to identify this subject with
>> Eve to divert
>>> some of this criticism.
>>> 
>>> It'd be difficult to make a serious argument for Miltonic influence, I
>> think, and
>>> once we start talking about general influence we leave ourselves open to
>> the
>>> possibility of the general influence of many different artists and
>> authors, especially
>>> for figures like Adam and Eve.  But it's an interesting rabbit to chase...
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Jim R
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sat, Nov 17, 2012 at 12:11 PM, Aaron Drucker <penandpaper at me.com<mailto:penandpaper at me.com>>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>>     I'm a tremendous fan of speculation.  (It's kind of what keeps many
>> of us
>>> that are employed in continued employment.)  And I've always been on the
>> fence
>>> about Milton's influence on the tradition in toto.  Certainly it appears
>> he codified a
>>> lot of (particularly Protestant) tradition of the Garden story, but
>> material art (and,
>>> incidentally, the religious traditions from which Milton derived his
>> interpretation of
>>> the story) reflects these themes for centuries before and (without
>> significant
>>> alteration in the artistic tradition) after Milton's masterpiece.
>>> 
>>>     I guess my real question comes down to which mode and particularly
>>> anxious influence Klimt (and similar artists) derive their may depictions
>> of Adam,
>>> Eve, "the Snake," &c.  Is it the late-medieval artistic tradition and the
>> Protestant
>>> milieu, or is it something more specific (like a great love of Milton's
>> poetry)?  I'm
>>> always hesitant to make claims when there is a strong competing tradition
>> within
>>> an artist's own wheelhouse.  To me, this is a great excuse to start
>> reading Klimt's
>>> letters, diaries, notes, &c.  Great fun!  And a grant to study in (where
>> is Klimt
>>> from again?  who has his papers? -- wherever that is!).
>>> 
>>>     Smiles,
>>>     AD
>>> 
>> 
>> 
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