[Milton-L] Milton-L Digest, Vol 72, Issue 6

Jameela Lares Jameela.Lares at usm.edu
Mon Nov 19 07:12:02 EST 2012


What a great research idea, Matthew!  A solid project that could be carried out in Vienna amidst many pastries and much _Gemütlichkeit_. You sound already as busy as the rest of us, but I wish you'd go for it.  

Jameela Lares
Professor of English
The University of Southern Mississippi
118 College Drive, #5037
Hattiesburg, MS  39406-0001
601 266-4319 ofc
601 266-5757 fax
________________________________________
From: milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu [milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu] on behalf of Matthew Jordan [matthewjorda at gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 12:02 AM
To: John Milton Discussion List
Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Milton-L Digest, Vol 72, Issue 6

Thanks, Jim, Jameela.

Vienna of the lC19-eC20 was, of course, an extraordinary intellectual hothouse, relatively small and full of coffee-houses and the like -  not unlike, I fancy, Milton's London. If Milton were relatively common currency among intellectuals there it might make for a fascinating book. A basis for starting out might be (one of the books I may never be able to fit into my life), Wittgenstein's Vienna; and Wittgenstein's Vienna Revisited, by Allan Janik and Stephen Toulmin.

Idly googling, with the hunch that something would come up for Wittgenstein + Milton (if nothing else because W famously had a spat with Leavis about what on earth the latter was talking about) I came across this, cited in Ray Monk, Wittgenstein: The Duty of Genius 568: [actually Amazon won't let me lift the longish text, but it includes the lines, regarding his problems with the idea of Shakespeare's greatness....]: "It takes the authority of a Milton to really convince me. I take it for granted that he was incorruptible." - the words of a man to whom Milton was a deeply familiar cultural "touchstone"? . . .

Best

Matt




On 18 November 2012 22:25, Jameela Lares <Jameela.Lares at usm.edu<mailto:Jameela.Lares at usm.edu>> wrote:
I'm interested!  I've made a note of it.  Thanks.

Jameela Lares
Professor of English
The University of Southern Mississippi
118 College Drive, #5037
Hattiesburg, MS  39406-0001
601 266-4319 ofc
601 266-5757 fax
________________________________________
From: milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu<mailto:milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu> [milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu<mailto:milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu>] on behalf of Matthew Jordan [matthewjorda at gmail.com<mailto:matthewjorda at gmail.com>]
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2012 3:44 PM
To: John Milton Discussion List
Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Milton-L Digest, Vol 72, Issue 6

Btw, for anyone interested in the reference, it's the Standard Edition of Freud Vol 11: 245.

Matt

On 18 Nov 2012, at 18:26, Carrol Cox wrote:

> Adam & Eve often appeared  in cartoons in popular magazines. In fact such
> cartoons probably have been a major source of popular conceptions of Eden.
>
> Carrol
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu<mailto:milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu> [mailto:milton-l-<mailto:milton-l->
>> bounces at lists.richmond.edu<mailto:bounces at lists.richmond.edu>] On Behalf Of James Rovira
>> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2012 9:37 AM
>> To: John Milton Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Milton-L Digest, Vol 72, Issue 6
>>
>> Klimt was Austrian... particularly, Viennese.  The Eve painting was among
> his very
>> last, as he died before he could finish it.  He doesn't do Biblical
> subjects very often
>> at all -- there's Judith and the Head of Holofernes, this one, and Judith
> II that
>> seem to be explicitly about Biblical subjects.  The Klimt website seems
> more
>> inclined to attribute influence to his models themselves; it could be this
> subject
>> was called Eve only because of her wide hips (mother of all the living)
> and long,
>> flowing hair.  He had been attacked for "pornography" by critics in his
> own
>> country -- retreating Nazis destroyed his three faculty paintings over 20
> years
>> after his death -- so it could be he chose to identify this subject with
> Eve to divert
>> some of this criticism.
>>
>> It'd be difficult to make a serious argument for Miltonic influence, I
> think, and
>> once we start talking about general influence we leave ourselves open to
> the
>> possibility of the general influence of many different artists and
> authors, especially
>> for figures like Adam and Eve.  But it's an interesting rabbit to chase...
>>
>>
>> Jim R
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 17, 2012 at 12:11 PM, Aaron Drucker <penandpaper at me.com<mailto:penandpaper at me.com>>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>      I'm a tremendous fan of speculation.  (It's kind of what keeps many
> of us
>> that are employed in continued employment.)  And I've always been on the
> fence
>> about Milton's influence on the tradition in toto.  Certainly it appears
> he codified a
>> lot of (particularly Protestant) tradition of the Garden story, but
> material art (and,
>> incidentally, the religious traditions from which Milton derived his
> interpretation of
>> the story) reflects these themes for centuries before and (without
> significant
>> alteration in the artistic tradition) after Milton's masterpiece.
>>
>>      I guess my real question comes down to which mode and particularly
>> anxious influence Klimt (and similar artists) derive their may depictions
> of Adam,
>> Eve, "the Snake," &c.  Is it the late-medieval artistic tradition and the
> Protestant
>> milieu, or is it something more specific (like a great love of Milton's
> poetry)?  I'm
>> always hesitant to make claims when there is a strong competing tradition
> within
>> an artist's own wheelhouse.  To me, this is a great excuse to start
> reading Klimt's
>> letters, diaries, notes, &c.  Great fun!  And a grant to study in (where
> is Klimt
>> from again?  who has his papers? -- wherever that is!).
>>
>>      Smiles,
>>      AD
>>
>
>
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