[Milton-L] Milton-L Digest, Vol 64, Issue 28

Roy Flannagan royflannagan at gmail.com
Sat Mar 31 19:47:50 EDT 2012


I agree with Noam Flinker that certainly Milton foreshadows the fallen
world by showing events like Eve's dream, which she does seem to be
innocent of.  And if the "yet sinless" is correct, Eve's debate with Adam
is not even a glimpse of a couple bickering in a fallen world.

I don't think Milton is as sensitive as Shakespeare to different registers
in the voices of dramatic characters (Hamlet does not talk to Claudius the
way he talks to Gertrude in the closet scene, and he certainly does not
talk to his father's ghost the way he talks to Claudius), but I think that
the speech of Adam and Eve changes after the Fall.  They start using words
like "ardor" and  "enjoy thee" in the same line, and the narrator describes
their sleep as "dewie."  Adam's misogyny is certainly fallen in its
perspective, though the fallen Eve may deserve the blame for her sex that
she has earned.

Roy



On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 7:11 PM, <milton-l-request at lists.richmond.edu>wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: Fallen and unfallen language (Noam Flinker)
>   2. Re: Fallen and unfallen language (Carrol Cox)
>   3. Re: Fallen and unfallen language (JD Fleming)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 00:58:27 +0300
> From: Noam Flinker <flinker at research.haifa.ac.il>
> To: John Milton Discussion List <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Fallen and unfallen language
> Message-ID:
>        <F4E0F90D-233B-440A-8729-4D45D73D4BB4 at research.haifa.ac.il>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
> So the poetry creates a fiction about an unfallen world which
> resembles the best of our world but with the potential of destroying
> itself and thus returning us to the world we know. Then the fiction
> includes within itself glimpses of what the fallen world will be like
> (e.g. Eve's dream, Adam and Eve's argument early in Book 9, etc.)
> Prof. Noam Flinker
> Dept. of English
> University of Haifa
> Haifa, ISRAEL
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 1, 2012, at 12:31 AM, Richard Strier wrote:
>
> > I do not believe that there is, in fact, in the actions and
> > attitudes, any significant difference between fallen and unfallen
> > sex.  I am sure that there was intended to be such but think that
> > here, as so often in the poem, Milton was saved from his conscious
> > intentions by his poetry.
> >
> > And I do not believe that there is any difference in language as
> > such between before and after the fall.  The things A &E say are
> > different (A is especially bad in his misogyny) but that is a
> > different matter.
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On Mar 31, 2012, at 4:01 PM, Roy <royflannagan at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Must we be as complicated as this? Of course we need well-defined
> >> terms and support from Milton's other works for what, say,
> >> "hypocrisy" meant to him.  But we can say with some certainty that
> >> fallen sex is nasty, and that unfallen sex had been beautiful and
> >> good.  The language of Adam and Eve follows the same pattern.
> >>
> >> Roy
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPad
> >>
> >> On Mar 31, 2012, at 4:42 PM, milton-l-request at lists.richmond.edu
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Send Milton-L mailing list submissions to
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> >>> than "Re: Contents of Milton-L digest..."
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Today's Topics:
> >>>
> >>> 1. Re: Milton-L Digest, Vol 64, Issue 24 (Harold Skulsky)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> Message: 1
> >>> Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 16:41:57 -0400
> >>> From: Harold Skulsky <hskulsky at smith.edu>
> >>> To: John Milton Discussion List <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
> >>> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Milton-L Digest, Vol 64, Issue 24
> >>> Message-ID:
> >>>  <CAHUg9Vagey3=dc88o4pgBkJdK1jWSDdYQYxbuXpo-8tFVd1-
> >>> ww at mail.gmail.com>
> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >>>
> >>> Don't we need specifications of the following to evaluate these
> >>> claims?
> >>>
> >>> (1) WHETHER "language" for current purposes =  the sum of: (i)
> >>> syntax +
> >>> (ii) lexicon + (iii) truisms of "common sense" and "common
> >>> knowledge"
> >>> [defeasible assumptions of the language community or relevant
> >>> sub-community] + (iv) pragmatics [rules for using items in (iii)
> >>> to adapt
> >>> items in (ii) to context of utterance];
> >>>
> >>> (2) whether the prelapsarian option of choosing to deceive,
> >>> defame, insult,
> >>> confuse, etc.--that is, the option of choosing to abuse "language"
> >>> as
> >>> defined in 1A above--is an aspect of free will (the possibility of
> >>> "doing
> >>> otherwise"), and hence a prerequisite rather than a result of the
> >>> Fall);
> >>>
> >>> (3) whether "fallen imagery" includes figurative expressions (see
> >>> 1 (iv))
> >>> that presuppose the brute facts of the Fall, and that arise
> >>> naturally from
> >>> the need to discuss those facts (in which case even God will
> >>> suffer from
> >>> the burden of thinking fallenly if his thinking is to include
> >>> plans for
> >>> putting the postlapsarian mess to rights);
> >>>
> >>> (4) whether the claims in question are "New Critical"--i.e.,
> >>> whether they
> >>> are to be understood as unaffected by available information about
> >>> Milton's
> >>> actual working distinction, if any, between pre- and postlapsarian
> >>> language
> >>> (as spelled out in his treatise on logic and other works, or as
> >>> implied by
> >>> his treatment of prooftexts in CD and other works);
> >>>
> >>> Please don't get me wrong. It seems to me that a version of the
> >>> Fallen
> >>> Language Thesis, suitably narrowed down in accord with (1)-(4),
> >>> might well
> >>> be right. And, right or wrong, I don't see how that version could be
> >>> overlooked in any critically interesting discussion of the prime
> >>> candidates
> >>> for divorce we have to listen to in PL 9 and part of PL 10--and
> >>> perhaps
> >>> also in discussing the reconciled and "justified" but not yet
> >>> "sanctified"
> >>> husband and wife who surprise us later in PL 10 and the beginning
> >>> of PL 11,
> >>> and whom we eventually see off, with hope and missgivings, at the
> >>> end of PL
> >>> 12.
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 5:51 PM, Roy Flannagan <royflannagan at gmail.com
> >>> >wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I believe that fallen language is quite different from innocent
> >>>> language,
> >>>> and that as soon as Adam and Eve begin talking after the Fall
> >>>> they betray
> >>>> themselves by crudity, by fallen imagery, and most of all by lying.
> >>>>
> >>>> I believe as well that their language becomes Satanic: they start
> >>>> to
> >>>> imitate him rather than God, in behavior and speech.
> >>>>
> >>>> Roy Flannagan
> >>>>
> >>>> On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 5:29 PM, <milton-l-request at lists.richmond.edu
> >>>> >wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Send Milton-L mailing list submissions to
> >>>>>     milton-l at lists.richmond.edu
> >>>>>
> >>>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> >>>>>     http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l
> >>>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> >>>>>     milton-l-request at lists.richmond.edu
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You can reach the person managing the list at
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> >>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more
> >>>>> specific
> >>>>> than "Re: Contents of Milton-L digest..."
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Today's Topics:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 1. Re: Help my foggy brain (Sara van den Berg)
> >>>>> 2. Re: Help my foggy brain (Jameela Lares)
> >>>>> 3. Re: Help my foggy brain (Michael Gillum)
> >>>>> 4. Re: Help my foggy brain (Sara van den Berg)
> >>>>> 5. Re: Help my foggy brain (Horace Jeffery Hodges)
> >>>>> 6. Re: Help my foggy brain (LEEJACOBUS at aol.com)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Message: 1
> >>>>> Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 11:36:43 -0500
> >>>>> From: Sara van den Berg <vandens at slu.edu>
> >>>>> To: John Milton Discussion List <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Help my foggy brain
> >>>>> Message-ID:
> >>>>>     <CAE4vJYftaoBmdKXM8i7OMwX5wzTeSoRDRua2vGztJeSCJh0K=
> >>>>> w at mail.gmail.com>
> >>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Robert Entzminger, in *God's Word*, offers a detailed and
> >>>>> persuasive
> >>>>> account of Milton's ideas about fallen and redeemed language.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sara van den Berg
> >>>>> -------------- next part --------------
> >>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >>>>> URL: <
> >>>>>
> http://lists.richmond.edu/pipermail/milton-l/attachments/20120330/e69e4540/attachment-0001.html
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ------------------------------
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Message: 2
> >>>>> Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 14:07:49 -0500
> >>>>> From: Jameela Lares <Jameela.Lares at usm.edu>
> >>>>> To: John Milton Discussion List <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Help my foggy brain
> >>>>> Message-ID:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> <4A593B57C2A1A948B04891C5B8F0F26B12BB6E45E2 at CCRMBX01.usmexchange.loc
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sara, by that title do you mean, _Divine Word: Milton and the
> >>>>> Redemption
> >>>>> of Language_?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Jameela Lares
> >>>>> Professor of English
> >>>>> The University of Southern Mississippi
> >>>>> 118 College Drive, #5037
> >>>>> Hattiesburg, MS  39406-0001
> >>>>> 601 266-4319 ofc
> >>>>> 601 266-5757 fax
> >>>>> ________________________________________
> >>>>> From: milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu [
> >>>>> milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu] On Behalf Of Sara van den
> >>>>> Berg [
> >>>>> vandens at slu.edu]
> >>>>> Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 11:36 AM
> >>>>> To: John Milton Discussion List
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Help my foggy brain
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Robert Entzminger, in God's Word, offers a detailed and persuasive
> >>>>> account of Milton's ideas about fallen and redeemed language.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sara van den Berg
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ------------------------------
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Message: 3
> >>>>> Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 15:42:11 -0400
> >>>>> From: Michael Gillum <mgillum at unca.edu>
> >>>>> To: John Milton Discussion List <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Help my foggy brain
> >>>>> Message-ID:
> >>>>>     <
> >>>>> CAMwPjHLGXMGwUtACSi-4kUt+0SmcSOSFf_dskB+Z
> >>>>> +zVVj2OwpA at mail.gmail.com>
> >>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I just reread Millicent Bell's 1953 article and enjoyed its
> >>>>> lucidity
> >>>>> (marvellous by today's standards). The argument--highly original
> >>>>> as far as
> >>>>> I know--can be summed up by these snippets:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> *?what Milton has shown us throughout the action is fallen
> >>>>> Man. . . .? *
> >>>>>
> >>>>> * *
> >>>>>
> >>>>> *If ?the Fall is only the climax of self-realization reached by
> >>>>> human-
> >>>>> kind
> >>>>> already fallen, then it was not only inevitable, but necessary.
> >>>>> Once the
> >>>>> sinfulness of Adam and Eve is established, it is only along this
> >>>>> road
> >>>>> followed to its bitter terminus that they may pass to
> >>>>> redemption.?***
> >>>>>
> >>>>> *
> >>>>> *
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Contrary to my hazy recollection, she doesn't discuss the
> >>>>> question of God
> >>>>> bearing blame for the faulty creation. She takes the already-
> >>>>> fallen
> >>>>> condition as a given. There is nothing in the article about
> >>>>> fallen/unfallen
> >>>>> language or about the environment of Paradise.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> To what extent does the text support her reading? Well, the
> >>>>> narrator
> >>>>> describes Eve as "yet sinless" on the morning before the Fall.
> >>>>> If we
> >>>>> attend
> >>>>> to the speeches and behavior of Eve and Adam before and after
> >>>>> their
> >>>>> "technical" falls (Bell's expression), we see in both cases a
> >>>>> radical
> >>>>> change in their moral natures for the worse. (I take Adam's fall
> >>>>> to occur
> >>>>> at 9.507, "Certain my resolution is to die," so that his
> >>>>> subsequent speech
> >>>>> is a fallen speech even though he has not yet tasted the fruit.)
> >>>>> -------------- next part --------------
> >>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >>>>> URL: <
> >>>>>
> http://lists.richmond.edu/pipermail/milton-l/attachments/20120330/9530e96b/attachment-0001.html
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ------------------------------
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Message: 4
> >>>>> Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 15:31:24 -0500
> >>>>> From: Sara van den Berg <vandens at slu.edu>
> >>>>> To: John Milton Discussion List <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Help my foggy brain
> >>>>> Message-ID:
> >>>>>     <
> >>>>> CAE4vJYdCb80f-
> >>>>> QpGaN7X3My41vGS8MfYRRP1FGZ0jFisqjo_zw at mail.gmail.com>
> >>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hi Jameela,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yes, that's the correct title.  I regret
> >>>>> the error of my (fallen) memory.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sara
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 2:07 PM, Jameela Lares <
> Jameela.Lares at usm.edu
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Sara, by that title do you mean, _Divine Word: Milton and the
> >>>>>> Redemption
> >>>>>> of Language_?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Jameela Lares
> >>>>>> Professor of English
> >>>>>> The University of Southern Mississippi
> >>>>>> 118 College Drive, #5037
> >>>>>> Hattiesburg, MS  39406-0001
> >>>>>> 601 266-4319 ofc
> >>>>>> 601 266-5757 fax
> >>>>>> ________________________________________
> >>>>>> From: milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu [
> >>>>>> milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu] On Behalf Of Sara van den
> >>>>>> Berg [
> >>>>>> vandens at slu.edu]
> >>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 11:36 AM
> >>>>>> To: John Milton Discussion List
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Help my foggy brain
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Robert Entzminger, in God's Word, offers a detailed and
> >>>>>> persuasive
> >>>>> account
> >>>>>> of Milton's ideas about fallen and redeemed language.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Sara van den Berg
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> Milton-L mailing list
> >>>>>> Milton-L at lists.richmond.edu
> >>>>>> Manage your list membership and access list archives at
> >>>>>> http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Milton-L web site: http://johnmilton.org/
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> -------------- next part --------------
> >>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >>>>> URL: <
> >>>>>
> http://lists.richmond.edu/pipermail/milton-l/attachments/20120330/80b0be23/attachment-0001.html
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ------------------------------
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Message: 5
> >>>>> Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 13:39:25 -0700 (PDT)
> >>>>> From: Horace Jeffery Hodges <jefferyhodges at yahoo.com>
> >>>>> To: John Milton Discussion List <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Help my foggy brain
> >>>>> Message-ID:
> >>>>>     <1333139965.79933.YahooMailNeo at web160901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
> >>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks for the explanation, Carrol. I finally understand your
> >>>>> argument
> >>>>> about no fallen and unfallen language in Paradise Lost.
> >>>>> ?
> >>>>> On the 'apple,' however:
> >>>>> ?
> >>>>> "How do we know that eating the apple is a sin (and hence a Fall
> >>>>> from
> >>>>> Innocence)? Milton (the narrative) tells us so."
> >>>>> ?
> >>>>> Except that -- as shown by Robert?Appelbaum and supported by my
> >>>>> article
> >>>>> from 2008 -- the 'apple' is actually a peach, and sin is
> >>>>> therefore peachy
> >>>>> keen.
> >>>>> ?
> >>>>> Jeffery Hodges
> >>>>> ?
> >>>>> From: Carrol Cox <cbcox at ilstu.edu>
> >>>>> To: 'John Milton Discussion List' <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
> >>>>> Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2012 12:15 AM
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Help my foggy brain
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Some years ago on this list I argued that neither 'fallen' nor
> >>>>> 'unfallen'
> >>>>> language exists: both are artifacts of Milton's plot. That is,
> >>>>> there is
> >>>>> nothing in a given speech by Satan or Eve or Abdiel to indicate
> >>>>> its
> >>>>> 'fallen'
> >>>>> or 'unfallen' nature. It has to be implicitly or explicitly
> >>>>> labelled in
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> text as such. (The argument is analogous to the argument that
> >>>>> there is no
> >>>>> linguistic sign in irony that establishes it as irony.)?
> >>>>> Similarly,
> >>>>> "fallen"
> >>>>> and "unfallen" behavior are artifacts of the text: neither exist
> >>>>> 'in the
> >>>>> world,' where we find, simply, human behavior.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "The Fall" itself then becomes an artifact, not a mimesis of the
> >>>>> actual
> >>>>> world itself.? How do we know that eating the apple is a sin
> >>>>> (and hence a
> >>>>> Fall from Innocence)? Milton (the narrative) tells us so. Only
> >>>>> 'inside' PL
> >>>>> is it a fall, and there it is an arbitrary premise of the poem.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Carrol
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu
> >>>>> [mailto:milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu] On Behalf Of John
> >>>>> Leonard
> >>>>> Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 7:41 AM
> >>>>> To: John Milton Discussion List
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Help my foggy brain
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It's only fair to add that Empson himself refuted the notion of
> >>>>> a Fall
> >>>>> before the Fall--but then Empson came at the problem in a novel
> >>>>> way by
> >>>>> denying any validity to the notion of a Fall. In other words,
> >>>>> Empson
> >>>>> pushes
> >>>>> innocence forward rather than sin back.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> John Leonard
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>> From: "Carrol Cox" <cbcox at ilstu.edu>
> >>>>> To: "'John Milton Discussion List'" <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 6:19 PM
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Help my foggy brain
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Blake, Shelley, Raleigh, Bell, Empson: All refuted and then
> >>>>>> refuted
> >>>>> again
> >>>>>> and then refuted again and then .....
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> And still they pop up to be refuted once more, and then ....
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Interesting.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Carrol
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> Milton-L mailing list
> >>>>>> Milton-L at lists.richmond.edu
> >>>>>> Manage your list membership and access list archives at
> >>>>>> http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Milton-L web site: http://johnmilton.org/
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Milton-L mailing list
> >>>>> Milton-L at lists.richmond.edu
> >>>>> Manage your list membership and access list archives at
> >>>>> http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Milton-L web site: http://johnmilton.org/
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Milton-L mailing list
> >>>>> Milton-L at lists.richmond.edu
> >>>>> Manage your list membership and access list archives at
> >>>>> http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Milton-L web site: http://johnmilton.org/
> >>>>> -------------- next part --------------
> >>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >>>>> URL: <
> >>>>>
> http://lists.richmond.edu/pipermail/milton-l/attachments/20120330/ae078830/attachment-0001.html
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ------------------------------
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Message: 6
> >>>>> Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 17:28:50 -0400 (EDT)
> >>>>> From: LEEJACOBUS at aol.com
> >>>>> To: milton-l at lists.richmond.edu
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Help my foggy brain
> >>>>> Message-ID: <6fd8a.24c74987.3ca77f92 at aol.com>
> >>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On a strictly personal note, I want to mention that I read
> >>>>> Milton with
> >>>>> Millie Bell at Brown when I began graduate school.  She was a
> >>>>> marvelous
> >>>>> teacher of Milton, although now she is a remarkable scholar of
> >>>>> American
> >>>>> literature, with a fine book on James, among other things.  She
> >>>>> never
> >>>>> once  mentioned
> >>>>> her article on Eve and let us fumble our way through PL without
> >>>>> coercion.
> >>>>> She is still a good friend.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _http://literatureartandideas.blogspot.com_
> >>>>> (http://literatureartandideas.blogspot.com/)
> >>>>> _http://www.leejacobus.com_ (http://www.leejacobus.com/)
> >>>>> _http://www.hammonassethouse.com_ (http://www.hammonassethouse.com/
> >>>>> )
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In a message dated 3/30/2012 4:40:24 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> >>>>> jefferyhodges at yahoo.com writes:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks for the explanation, Carrol. I finally  understand your
> >>>>> argument
> >>>>> about no fallen and unfallen language in Paradise Lost.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On the 'apple,' however:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "How do we know that eating the apple is a sin (and  hence a
> >>>>> Fall from
> >>>>> Innocence)? Milton (the narrative) tells us so."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Except that -- as shown by Robert Appelbaum and  supported by my
> >>>>> article
> >>>>> from 2008 -- the 'apple' is actually a peach, and sin is
> >>>>> therefore peachy
> >>>>> keen.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Jeffery Hodges
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> From: Carrol Cox  <cbcox at ilstu.edu>
> >>>>> To:  'John Milton Discussion List' <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
> >>>>> Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2012 12:15  AM
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Milton-L]  Help my foggy brain
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Some years ago on this list I argued  that neither 'fallen' nor
> >>>>> 'unfallen'
> >>>>> language exists: both are artifacts of  Milton's plot. That is,
> >>>>> there is
> >>>>> nothing in a given speech by Satan or Eve  or Abdiel to indicate
> >>>>> its
> >>>>> 'fallen'
> >>>>> or 'unfallen' nature. It has to be  implicitly or explicitly
> >>>>> labelled in
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> text as such. (The argument is  analogous to the argument that
> >>>>> there is no
> >>>>> linguistic sign in irony that  establishes it as irony.)
> >>>>> Similarly,
> >>>>> "fallen"
> >>>>> and "unfallen" behavior  are artifacts of the text: neither
> >>>>> exist 'in the
> >>>>> world,' where we find,  simply, human behavior.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "The Fall" itself then becomes an artifact, not  a mimesis of
> >>>>> the actual
> >>>>> world itself.  How do we know that eating the  apple is a sin
> >>>>> (and hence a
> >>>>> Fall from Innocence)? Milton (the narrative)  tells us so. Only
> >>>>> 'inside'
> >>>>> PL
> >>>>> is it a fall, and there it is an arbitrary  premise of the poem.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Carrol
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From:  _milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu_
> >>>>> (mailto:milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu)
> >>>>> [mailto:_milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu_
> >>>>> (mailto:milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu) ]  On Behalf Of
> >>>>> John Leonard
> >>>>> Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 7:41 AM
> >>>>> To: John  Milton Discussion List
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Help my foggy  brain
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It's only fair to add that Empson himself refuted the notion of
> >>>>> a  Fall
> >>>>> before the Fall--but then Empson came at the problem in a novel
> >>>>> way  by
> >>>>> denying any validity to the notion of a Fall. In other words,
> >>>>> Empson
> >>>>> pushes
> >>>>> innocence forward rather than sin back.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> John  Leonard
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>> From: "Carrol Cox" <_cbcox at ilstu.edu_ (mailto:cbcox at ilstu.edu) >
> >>>>> To: "'John Milton  Discussion List'" <_milton-
> >>>>> l at lists.richmond.edu_
> >>>>> (mailto:milton-l at lists.richmond.edu) >
> >>>>> Sent:  Thursday, March 29, 2012 6:19 PM
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Help my foggy  brain
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Blake, Shelley, Raleigh, Bell, Empson: All refuted and  then
> >>>>>> refuted
> >>>>> again
> >>>>>> and then refuted again and then  .....
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> And still they pop up to be refuted once more, and then  ....
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Interesting.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Carrol
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> Milton-L mailing  list
> >>>>>> _Milton-L at lists.richmond.edu_ (mailto:Milton-
> >>>>>> L at lists.richmond.edu)
> >>>>>> Manage your list membership and access list archives at
> >>>>>> http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Milton-L  web site: http://johnmilton.org/
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Milton-L mailing  list
> >>>>> _Milton-L at lists.richmond.edu_ (mailto:Milton-L at lists.richmond.edu)
> >>>>> Manage  your list membership and access list archives at
> >>>>> _http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l_
> >>>>> (http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Milton-L  web site: _http://johnmilton.org/_ (http://johnmilton.org/
> >>>>> )
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Milton-L  mailing list
> >>>>> _Milton-L at lists.richmond.edu_ (mailto:Milton-L at lists.richmond.edu)
> >>>>> Manage  your list membership and access list archives at
> >>>>> _http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l_
> >>>>> (http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Milton-L  web site: _http://johnmilton.org/_ (http://johnmilton.org/
> >>>>> )
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Milton-L  mailing list
> >>>>> Milton-L at lists.richmond.edu
> >>>>> Manage your list membership and  access list archives at
> >>>>> http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Milton-L web site:  http://johnmilton.org/
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -------------- next part --------------
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> >>>>>
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> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ------------------------------
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>> Manage your membership and access list archives at
> >>>>> http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Milton-L web site: http://johnmilton.org/
> >>>>>
> >>>>> End of Milton-L Digest, Vol 64, Issue 24
> >>>>> ****************************************
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Milton-L mailing list
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> >>>> Manage your list membership and access list archives at
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> >>> >
> >>>
> >>> ------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Milton-L mailing list
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> >>> Manage your membership and access list archives at
> http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l
> >>>
> >>> Milton-L web site: http://johnmilton.org/
> >>>
> >>> End of Milton-L Digest, Vol 64, Issue 26
> >>> ****************************************
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Milton-L mailing list
> >> Milton-L at lists.richmond.edu
> >> Manage your list membership and access list archives at
> http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l
> >>
> >> Milton-L web site: http://johnmilton.org/
> > _______________________________________________
> > Milton-L mailing list
> > Milton-L at lists.richmond.edu
> > Manage your list membership and access list archives at
> http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l
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>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 17:30:11 -0500
> From: "Carrol Cox" <cbcox at ilstu.edu>
> To: "'John Milton Discussion List'" <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Fallen and unfallen language
> Message-ID: <5133DBCE2BCB46B198D84C187DA598BF at CarrolHPDesk>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"
>
> Let's consider lying. Here is a lie:
>
> Pope died in 1780.
>
> Now, I don't know off hand someone who died in 1780, but someone certainly
> did; call her Marie.
>
> Marie died in 1780.
>
> The lie represents different behavior, but I see no way to differentiate
> the
> _language_ of the two statements. To determine the untruth of the first and
> the truth of the second we do not examine the language; we examine the
> world
> and compare it with the statements made. I should think a difference of
> language would have to be revealed through analyzing the words, syntax,
> etc.
> without reference to the aspects of the world to which the language refers
> or the purposes it serves.
>
> What makes unfallen language unfallen? _As langguare_, without reference to
> its content? As Richard Strier indicates below, it Adam's misogyny not the
> language in which it is expressed that is fallen.
>
> Carrol
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu
> [mailto:milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu] On Behalf Of Richard Strier
> Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2012 4:32 PM
> To: John Milton Discussion List
> Cc: milton-l at lists.richmond.edu
> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Fallen and unfallen language
>
> I do not believe that there is, in fact, in the actions and attitudes,
> any significant difference between fallen and unfallen sex.  I am sure
> that there was intended to be such but think that here, as so often in
> the poem, Milton was saved from his conscious intentions by his poetry.
>
> And I do not believe that there is any difference in language as such
> between before and after the fall.  The things A &E say are different
> (A is especially bad in his misogyny) but that is a different matter.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 31, 2012, at 4:01 PM, Roy <royflannagan at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Must we be as complicated as this? Of course we need well-defined
> > terms and support from Milton's other works for what, say,
> > "hypocrisy" meant to him.  But we can say with some certainty that
> > fallen sex is nasty, and that unfallen sex had been beautiful and
> > good.  The language of Adam and Eve follows the same pattern.
> >
> > Roy
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 16:10:57 -0700 (PDT)
> From: JD Fleming <jfleming at sfu.ca>
> To: John Milton Discussion List <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Fallen and unfallen language
> Message-ID:
>        <393918642.6305079.1333235457524.JavaMail.root at jaguar9.sfu.ca>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Where does the text support that alleged certainty?
>
> It seems me (as usual when this issue comes up) that the interesting
> questions only get going when we recognize how surprisingly _little_
> difference there is between Milton's representations of sexuality before
> and after the fall.
>
> JD Fleming
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roy" <royflannagan at gmail.com>
> To: milton-l at lists.richmond.edu
> Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2012 2:01:07 PM
> Subject: [Milton-L] Fallen and unfallen language
>
> Must we be as complicated as this? Of course we need well-defined terms
> and support from Milton's other works for what, say, "hypocrisy" meant to
> him.  But we can say with some certainty that fallen sex is nasty, and that
> unfallen sex had been beautiful and good.  The language of Adam and Eve
> follows the same pattern.
>
> Roy
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Mar 31, 2012, at 4:42 PM, milton-l-request at lists.richmond.edu wrote:
>
> > Send Milton-L mailing list submissions to
> >    milton-l at lists.richmond.edu
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> >    http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> >    milton-l-request at lists.richmond.edu
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> >    milton-l-owner at lists.richmond.edu
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of Milton-L digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> >   1. Re: Milton-L Digest, Vol 64, Issue 24 (Harold Skulsky)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 16:41:57 -0400
> > From: Harold Skulsky <hskulsky at smith.edu>
> > To: John Milton Discussion List <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
> > Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Milton-L Digest, Vol 64, Issue 24
> > Message-ID:
> >    <CAHUg9Vagey3=dc88o4pgBkJdK1jWSDdYQYxbuXpo-8tFVd1-ww at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > Don't we need specifications of the following to evaluate these claims?
> >
> > (1) WHETHER "language" for current purposes =  the sum of: (i) syntax +
> > (ii) lexicon + (iii) truisms of "common sense" and "common knowledge"
> > [defeasible assumptions of the language community or relevant
> > sub-community] + (iv) pragmatics [rules for using items in (iii) to adapt
> > items in (ii) to context of utterance];
> >
> > (2) whether the prelapsarian option of choosing to deceive, defame,
> insult,
> > confuse, etc.--that is, the option of choosing to abuse "language" as
> > defined in 1A above--is an aspect of free will (the possibility of "doing
> > otherwise"), and hence a prerequisite rather than a result of the Fall);
> >
> > (3) whether "fallen imagery" includes figurative expressions (see 1 (iv))
> > that presuppose the brute facts of the Fall, and that arise naturally
> from
> > the need to discuss those facts (in which case even God will suffer from
> > the burden of thinking fallenly if his thinking is to include plans for
> > putting the postlapsarian mess to rights);
> >
> > (4) whether the claims in question are "New Critical"--i.e., whether they
> > are to be understood as unaffected by available information about
> Milton's
> > actual working distinction, if any, between pre- and postlapsarian
> language
> > (as spelled out in his treatise on logic and other works, or as implied
> by
> > his treatment of prooftexts in CD and other works);
> >
> > Please don't get me wrong. It seems to me that a version of the Fallen
> > Language Thesis, suitably narrowed down in accord with (1)-(4), might
> well
> > be right. And, right or wrong, I don't see how that version could be
> > overlooked in any critically interesting discussion of the prime
> candidates
> > for divorce we have to listen to in PL 9 and part of PL 10--and perhaps
> > also in discussing the reconciled and "justified" but not yet
> "sanctified"
> > husband and wife who surprise us later in PL 10 and the beginning of PL
> 11,
> > and whom we eventually see off, with hope and missgivings, at the end of
> PL
> > 12.
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 5:51 PM, Roy Flannagan <royflannagan at gmail.com
> >wrote:
> >
> >> I believe that fallen language is quite different from innocent
> language,
> >> and that as soon as Adam and Eve begin talking after the Fall they
> betray
> >> themselves by crudity, by fallen imagery, and most of all by lying.
> >>
> >> I believe as well that their language becomes Satanic: they start to
> >> imitate him rather than God, in behavior and speech.
> >>
> >> Roy Flannagan
> >>
> >> On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 5:29 PM, <milton-l-request at lists.richmond.edu
> >wrote:
> >>
> >>> Send Milton-L mailing list submissions to
> >>>       milton-l at lists.richmond.edu
> >>>
> >>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> >>>       http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l
> >>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> >>>       milton-l-request at lists.richmond.edu
> >>>
> >>> You can reach the person managing the list at
> >>>       milton-l-owner at lists.richmond.edu
> >>>
> >>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> >>> than "Re: Contents of Milton-L digest..."
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Today's Topics:
> >>>
> >>>  1. Re: Help my foggy brain (Sara van den Berg)
> >>>  2. Re: Help my foggy brain (Jameela Lares)
> >>>  3. Re: Help my foggy brain (Michael Gillum)
> >>>  4. Re: Help my foggy brain (Sara van den Berg)
> >>>  5. Re: Help my foggy brain (Horace Jeffery Hodges)
> >>>  6. Re: Help my foggy brain (LEEJACOBUS at aol.com)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> Message: 1
> >>> Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 11:36:43 -0500
> >>> From: Sara van den Berg <vandens at slu.edu>
> >>> To: John Milton Discussion List <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
> >>> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Help my foggy brain
> >>> Message-ID:
> >>>       <CAE4vJYftaoBmdKXM8i7OMwX5wzTeSoRDRua2vGztJeSCJh0K=
> >>> w at mail.gmail.com>
> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >>>
> >>> Robert Entzminger, in *God's Word*, offers a detailed and persuasive
> >>> account of Milton's ideas about fallen and redeemed language.
> >>>
> >>> Sara van den Berg
> >>> -------------- next part --------------
> >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >>> URL: <
> >>>
> http://lists.richmond.edu/pipermail/milton-l/attachments/20120330/e69e4540/attachment-0001.html
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> ------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> Message: 2
> >>> Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 14:07:49 -0500
> >>> From: Jameela Lares <Jameela.Lares at usm.edu>
> >>> To: John Milton Discussion List <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
> >>> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Help my foggy brain
> >>> Message-ID:
> >>>
> >>> <4A593B57C2A1A948B04891C5B8F0F26B12BB6E45E2 at CCRMBX01.usmexchange.loc>
> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >>>
> >>> Sara, by that title do you mean, _Divine Word: Milton and the
> Redemption
> >>> of Language_?
> >>>
> >>> Jameela Lares
> >>> Professor of English
> >>> The University of Southern Mississippi
> >>> 118 College Drive, #5037
> >>> Hattiesburg, MS  39406-0001
> >>> 601 266-4319 ofc
> >>> 601 266-5757 fax
> >>> ________________________________________
> >>> From: milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu [
> >>> milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu] On Behalf Of Sara van den Berg [
> >>> vandens at slu.edu]
> >>> Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 11:36 AM
> >>> To: John Milton Discussion List
> >>> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Help my foggy brain
> >>>
> >>> Robert Entzminger, in God's Word, offers a detailed and persuasive
> >>> account of Milton's ideas about fallen and redeemed language.
> >>>
> >>> Sara van den Berg
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> Message: 3
> >>> Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 15:42:11 -0400
> >>> From: Michael Gillum <mgillum at unca.edu>
> >>> To: John Milton Discussion List <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
> >>> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Help my foggy brain
> >>> Message-ID:
> >>>       <
> >>> CAMwPjHLGXMGwUtACSi-4kUt+0SmcSOSFf_dskB+Z+zVVj2OwpA at mail.gmail.com>
> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
> >>>
> >>> I just reread Millicent Bell's 1953 article and enjoyed its lucidity
> >>> (marvellous by today's standards). The argument--highly original as
> far as
> >>> I know--can be summed up by these snippets:
> >>>
> >>> *?what Milton has shown us throughout the action is fallen Man. . . .?
> *
> >>>
> >>> * *
> >>>
> >>> *If ?the Fall is only the climax of self-realization reached by human-
> >>> kind
> >>> already fallen, then it was not only inevitable, but necessary. Once
> the
> >>> sinfulness of Adam and Eve is established, it is only along this road
> >>> followed to its bitter terminus that they may pass to redemption.?***
> >>>
> >>> *
> >>> *
> >>>
> >>> Contrary to my hazy recollection, she doesn't discuss the question of
> God
> >>> bearing blame for the faulty creation. She takes the already-fallen
> >>> condition as a given. There is nothing in the article about
> >>> fallen/unfallen
> >>> language or about the environment of Paradise.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> To what extent does the text support her reading? Well, the narrator
> >>> describes Eve as "yet sinless" on the morning before the Fall. If we
> >>> attend
> >>> to the speeches and behavior of Eve and Adam before and after their
> >>> "technical" falls (Bell's expression), we see in both cases a radical
> >>> change in their moral natures for the worse. (I take Adam's fall to
> occur
> >>> at 9.507, "Certain my resolution is to die," so that his subsequent
> speech
> >>> is a fallen speech even though he has not yet tasted the fruit.)
> >>> -------------- next part --------------
> >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >>> URL: <
> >>>
> http://lists.richmond.edu/pipermail/milton-l/attachments/20120330/9530e96b/attachment-0001.html
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> ------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> Message: 4
> >>> Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 15:31:24 -0500
> >>> From: Sara van den Berg <vandens at slu.edu>
> >>> To: John Milton Discussion List <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
> >>> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Help my foggy brain
> >>> Message-ID:
> >>>       <
> >>> CAE4vJYdCb80f-QpGaN7X3My41vGS8MfYRRP1FGZ0jFisqjo_zw at mail.gmail.com>
> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >>>
> >>> Hi Jameela,
> >>>
> >>> Yes, that's the correct title.  I regret
> >>> the error of my (fallen) memory.
> >>>
> >>> Sara
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 2:07 PM, Jameela Lares <Jameela.Lares at usm.edu
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Sara, by that title do you mean, _Divine Word: Milton and the
> Redemption
> >>>> of Language_?
> >>>>
> >>>> Jameela Lares
> >>>> Professor of English
> >>>> The University of Southern Mississippi
> >>>> 118 College Drive, #5037
> >>>> Hattiesburg, MS  39406-0001
> >>>> 601 266-4319 ofc
> >>>> 601 266-5757 fax
> >>>> ________________________________________
> >>>> From: milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu [
> >>>> milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu] On Behalf Of Sara van den Berg [
> >>>> vandens at slu.edu]
> >>>> Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 11:36 AM
> >>>> To: John Milton Discussion List
> >>>> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Help my foggy brain
> >>>>
> >>>> Robert Entzminger, in God's Word, offers a detailed and persuasive
> >>> account
> >>>> of Milton's ideas about fallen and redeemed language.
> >>>>
> >>>> Sara van den Berg
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Milton-L mailing list
> >>>> Milton-L at lists.richmond.edu
> >>>> Manage your list membership and access list archives at
> >>>> http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l
> >>>>
> >>>> Milton-L web site: http://johnmilton.org/
> >>>>
> >>> -------------- next part --------------
> >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >>> URL: <
> >>>
> http://lists.richmond.edu/pipermail/milton-l/attachments/20120330/80b0be23/attachment-0001.html
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> ------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> Message: 5
> >>> Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 13:39:25 -0700 (PDT)
> >>> From: Horace Jeffery Hodges <jefferyhodges at yahoo.com>
> >>> To: John Milton Discussion List <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
> >>> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Help my foggy brain
> >>> Message-ID:
> >>>       <1333139965.79933.YahooMailNeo at web160901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for the explanation, Carrol. I finally understand your argument
> >>> about no fallen and unfallen language in Paradise Lost.
> >>> ?
> >>> On the 'apple,' however:
> >>> ?
> >>> "How do we know that eating the apple is a sin (and hence a Fall from
> >>> Innocence)? Milton (the narrative) tells us so."
> >>> ?
> >>> Except that -- as shown by Robert?Appelbaum and supported by my article
> >>> from 2008 -- the 'apple' is actually a peach, and sin is therefore
> peachy
> >>> keen.
> >>> ?
> >>> Jeffery Hodges
> >>> ?
> >>> From: Carrol Cox <cbcox at ilstu.edu>
> >>> To: 'John Milton Discussion List' <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
> >>> Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2012 12:15 AM
> >>> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Help my foggy brain
> >>>
> >>> Some years ago on this list I argued that neither 'fallen' nor
> 'unfallen'
> >>> language exists: both are artifacts of Milton's plot. That is, there is
> >>> nothing in a given speech by Satan or Eve or Abdiel to indicate its
> >>> 'fallen'
> >>> or 'unfallen' nature. It has to be implicitly or explicitly labelled in
> >>> the
> >>> text as such. (The argument is analogous to the argument that there is
> no
> >>> linguistic sign in irony that establishes it as irony.)? Similarly,
> >>> "fallen"
> >>> and "unfallen" behavior are artifacts of the text: neither exist 'in
> the
> >>> world,' where we find, simply, human behavior.
> >>>
> >>> "The Fall" itself then becomes an artifact, not a mimesis of the actual
> >>> world itself.? How do we know that eating the apple is a sin (and
> hence a
> >>> Fall from Innocence)? Milton (the narrative) tells us so. Only
> 'inside' PL
> >>> is it a fall, and there it is an arbitrary premise of the poem.
> >>>
> >>> Carrol
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu
> >>> [mailto:milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu] On Behalf Of John Leonard
> >>> Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 7:41 AM
> >>> To: John Milton Discussion List
> >>> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Help my foggy brain
> >>>
> >>> It's only fair to add that Empson himself refuted the notion of a Fall
> >>> before the Fall--but then Empson came at the problem in a novel way by
> >>> denying any validity to the notion of a Fall. In other words, Empson
> >>> pushes
> >>> innocence forward rather than sin back.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> John Leonard
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Carrol Cox" <cbcox at ilstu.edu>
> >>> To: "'John Milton Discussion List'" <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
> >>> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 6:19 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Help my foggy brain
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Blake, Shelley, Raleigh, Bell, Empson: All refuted and then refuted
> >>> again
> >>>> and then refuted again and then .....
> >>>>
> >>>> And still they pop up to be refuted once more, and then ....
> >>>>
> >>>> Interesting.
> >>>>
> >>>> Carrol
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Milton-L mailing list
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> >>>> Manage your list membership and access list archives at
> >>>> http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l
> >>>>
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> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Milton-L mailing list
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> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Milton-L mailing list
> >>> Milton-L at lists.richmond.edu
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> >>> -------------- next part --------------
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> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> ------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> Message: 6
> >>> Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 17:28:50 -0400 (EDT)
> >>> From: LEEJACOBUS at aol.com
> >>> To: milton-l at lists.richmond.edu
> >>> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Help my foggy brain
> >>> Message-ID: <6fd8a.24c74987.3ca77f92 at aol.com>
> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >>>
> >>> On a strictly personal note, I want to mention that I read Milton with
> >>> Millie Bell at Brown when I began graduate school.  She was a marvelous
> >>> teacher of Milton, although now she is a remarkable scholar of American
> >>> literature, with a fine book on James, among other things.  She never
> >>> once  mentioned
> >>> her article on Eve and let us fumble our way through PL without
>  coercion.
> >>> She is still a good friend.
> >>>
> >>> _http://literatureartandideas.blogspot.com_
> >>> (http://literatureartandideas.blogspot.com/)
> >>> _http://www.leejacobus.com_ (http://www.leejacobus.com/)
> >>> _http://www.hammonassethouse.com_ (http://www.hammonassethouse.com/)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> In a message dated 3/30/2012 4:40:24 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> >>> jefferyhodges at yahoo.com writes:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for the explanation, Carrol. I finally  understand your argument
> >>> about no fallen and unfallen language in Paradise Lost.
> >>>
> >>> On the 'apple,' however:
> >>>
> >>> "How do we know that eating the apple is a sin (and  hence a Fall from
> >>> Innocence)? Milton (the narrative) tells us so."
> >>>
> >>> Except that -- as shown by Robert Appelbaum and  supported by my
> article
> >>> from 2008 -- the 'apple' is actually a peach, and sin is therefore
> peachy
> >>> keen.
> >>>
> >>> Jeffery Hodges
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> From: Carrol Cox  <cbcox at ilstu.edu>
> >>> To:  'John Milton Discussion List' <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
> >>> Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2012 12:15  AM
> >>> Subject: Re: [Milton-L]  Help my foggy brain
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Some years ago on this list I argued  that neither 'fallen' nor
> 'unfallen'
> >>> language exists: both are artifacts of  Milton's plot. That is, there
> is
> >>> nothing in a given speech by Satan or Eve  or Abdiel to indicate its
> >>> 'fallen'
> >>> or 'unfallen' nature. It has to be  implicitly or explicitly labelled
> in
> >>> the
> >>> text as such. (The argument is  analogous to the argument that there
> is no
> >>> linguistic sign in irony that  establishes it as irony.)  Similarly,
> >>> "fallen"
> >>> and "unfallen" behavior  are artifacts of the text: neither exist 'in
> the
> >>> world,' where we find,  simply, human behavior.
> >>>
> >>> "The Fall" itself then becomes an artifact, not  a mimesis of the
> actual
> >>> world itself.  How do we know that eating the  apple is a sin (and
> hence a
> >>> Fall from Innocence)? Milton (the narrative)  tells us so. Only
> 'inside'
> >>> PL
> >>> is it a fall, and there it is an arbitrary  premise of the poem.
> >>>
> >>> Carrol
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From:  _milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu_
> >>> (mailto:milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu)
> >>> [mailto:_milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu_
> >>> (mailto:milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu) ]  On Behalf Of John
> Leonard
> >>> Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 7:41 AM
> >>> To: John  Milton Discussion List
> >>> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Help my foggy  brain
> >>>
> >>> It's only fair to add that Empson himself refuted the notion of a  Fall
> >>> before the Fall--but then Empson came at the problem in a novel way  by
> >>> denying any validity to the notion of a Fall. In other words, Empson
> >>> pushes
> >>> innocence forward rather than sin back.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> John  Leonard
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Carrol Cox" <_cbcox at ilstu.edu_ (mailto:cbcox at ilstu.edu) >
> >>> To: "'John Milton  Discussion List'" <_milton-l at lists.richmond.edu_
> >>> (mailto:milton-l at lists.richmond.edu) >
> >>> Sent:  Thursday, March 29, 2012 6:19 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Help my foggy  brain
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Blake, Shelley, Raleigh, Bell, Empson: All refuted and  then refuted
> >>> again
> >>>> and then refuted again and then  .....
> >>>>
> >>>> And still they pop up to be refuted once more, and then  ....
> >>>>
> >>>> Interesting.
> >>>>
> >>>> Carrol
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Milton-L mailing  list
> >>>> _Milton-L at lists.richmond.edu_ (mailto:Milton-L at lists.richmond.edu)
> >>>> Manage your list membership and access list archives at
> >>>> http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l
> >>>>
> >>>> Milton-L  web site: http://johnmilton.org/
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Milton-L mailing  list
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> >>> Manage  your list membership and access list archives at
> >>> _http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l_
> >>> (http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l)
> >>>
> >>> Milton-L  web site: _http://johnmilton.org/_ (http://johnmilton.org/)
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Milton-L  mailing list
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> >>> Manage  your list membership and access list archives at
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> >>>
> >>> Milton-L  web site: _http://johnmilton.org/_ (http://johnmilton.org/)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Milton-L  mailing list
> >>> Milton-L at lists.richmond.edu
> >>> Manage your list membership and  access list archives at
> >>> http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l
> >>>
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> >>>
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> >>>
> >>> ------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
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> >>> Milton-L web site: http://johnmilton.org/
> >>>
> >>> End of Milton-L Digest, Vol 64, Issue 24
> >>> ****************************************
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
> > End of Milton-L Digest, Vol 64, Issue 26
> > ****************************************
>
> _______________________________________________
> Milton-L mailing list
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> Milton-L web site: http://johnmilton.org/
>
> --
> James Dougal Fleming
> Associate Professor and Undergraduate Chair
> Department of English
> Simon Fraser University
>
> 778-782-4713
>
> decorum}mimesis/nature<understanding
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
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>
> End of Milton-L Digest, Vol 64, Issue 28
> ****************************************
>
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