[Milton-L] Fallen and unfallen language

Salwa Khoddam skhoddam at cox.net
Sat Mar 31 21:53:53 EDT 2012

I agree with you about the different kinds of love making before and the 
after the fall.  For me the word "contagious" is most revealing of the lust 
they experience after the fall, in this word's association with disease and 
hellish fire.  And of course the word "seiz'd."  But on what are you basing 
your conclusion that their amourous dallying  was oral sex as you 
confidently state in your essay? On "fallacious" fruit?? (I'm sorry I don't 
have a copy of your article to read in full, but your intro intrigued me.)

Salwa Khoddam PhD
Professor of English Emerita
Oklahoma City University
skhoddam at cox.net
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <jsavoie at siue.edu>
To: "John Milton Discussion List" <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>; "JD 
Fleming" <jfleming at sfu.ca>
Cc: "John Milton Discussion List" <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2012 7:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Fallen and unfallen language

> My essay recently published in the Milton Quarterly argues for a strong 
> and
> consistent distinction in Milton's representations of sexuality before and
> during/after the fall.
> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1094-348X.2011.00289.x/abstract
> John Savoie
> Quoting JD Fleming <jfleming at sfu.ca>:
>> Where does the text support that alleged certainty?
>> It seems me (as usual when this issue comes up) that the interesting
>> questions only get going when we recognize how surprisingly _little_
>> difference there is between Milton's representations of sexuality before 
>> and
>> after the fall.
>> JD Fleming
> I do not believe that there is, in fact, in the actions and attitudes,
> any significant difference between fallen and unfallen sex.  I am sure
> that there was intended to be such but think that here, as so often in
> the poem, Milton was saved from his conscious intentions by his poetry.
> And I do not believe that there is any difference in language as such
> between before and after the fall.  The things A &E say are different
> (A is especially bad in his misogyny) but that is a different matter.
> --Richard Strier
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Roy" <royflannagan at gmail.com>
>> To: milton-l at lists.richmond.edu
>> Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2012 2:01:07 PM
>> Subject: [Milton-L] Fallen and unfallen language
>> Must we be as complicated as this? Of course we need well-defined terms 
>> and
>> support from Milton's other works for what, say, "hypocrisy" meant to 
>> him.
>> But we can say with some certainty that fallen sex is nasty, and that
>> unfallen sex had been beautiful and good.  The language of Adam and Eve
>> follows the same pattern.
>> Roy
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