[Milton-L] Help my foggy brain

LEEJACOBUS at aol.com LEEJACOBUS at aol.com
Fri Mar 30 17:28:50 EDT 2012


On a strictly personal note, I want to mention that I read Milton with  
Millie Bell at Brown when I began graduate school.  She was a marvelous  
teacher of Milton, although now she is a remarkable scholar of American  
literature, with a fine book on James, among other things.  She never once  mentioned 
her article on Eve and let us fumble our way through PL without  coercion.  
She is still a good friend.  
 
_http://literatureartandideas.blogspot.com_ 
(http://literatureartandideas.blogspot.com/) 
_http://www.leejacobus.com_ (http://www.leejacobus.com/) 
_http://www.hammonassethouse.com_ (http://www.hammonassethouse.com/) 


In a message dated 3/30/2012 4:40:24 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
jefferyhodges at yahoo.com writes:

 
Thanks for the explanation, Carrol. I finally  understand your argument 
about no fallen and unfallen language in Paradise Lost.
 
On the 'apple,' however:
 
"How do we know that eating the apple is a sin (and  hence a Fall from 
Innocence)? Milton (the narrative) tells us so."
 
Except that -- as shown by Robert Appelbaum and  supported by my article 
from 2008 -- the 'apple' is actually a peach, and sin is therefore peachy keen.
 
Jeffery Hodges
 
 
 
 
 

From: Carrol Cox  <cbcox at ilstu.edu>
To:  'John Milton Discussion List' <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu> 
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2012 12:15  AM
Subject: Re: [Milton-L]  Help my foggy brain


Some years ago on this list I argued  that neither 'fallen' nor 'unfallen'
language exists: both are artifacts of  Milton's plot. That is, there is
nothing in a given speech by Satan or Eve  or Abdiel to indicate its 
'fallen'
or 'unfallen' nature. It has to be  implicitly or explicitly labelled in the
text as such. (The argument is  analogous to the argument that there is no
linguistic sign in irony that  establishes it as irony.)  Similarly, 
"fallen"
and "unfallen" behavior  are artifacts of the text: neither exist 'in the
world,' where we find,  simply, human behavior.

"The Fall" itself then becomes an artifact, not  a mimesis of the actual
world itself.  How do we know that eating the  apple is a sin (and hence a
Fall from Innocence)? Milton (the narrative)  tells us so. Only 'inside' PL
is it a fall, and there it is an arbitrary  premise of the poem.

Carrol

-----Original Message-----
From:  _milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu_ 
(mailto:milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu) 
[mailto:_milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu_ 
(mailto:milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu) ]  On Behalf Of John Leonard
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 7:41 AM
To: John  Milton Discussion List
Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Help my foggy  brain

It's only fair to add that Empson himself refuted the notion of a  Fall 
before the Fall--but then Empson came at the problem in a novel way  by 
denying any validity to the notion of a Fall. In other words, Empson  
pushes 
innocence forward rather than sin back.


John  Leonard

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carrol Cox" <_cbcox at ilstu.edu_ (mailto:cbcox at ilstu.edu) >
To: "'John Milton  Discussion List'" <_milton-l at lists.richmond.edu_ 
(mailto:milton-l at lists.richmond.edu) >
Sent:  Thursday, March 29, 2012 6:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Help my foggy  brain


> Blake, Shelley, Raleigh, Bell, Empson: All refuted and  then refuted again
> and then refuted again and then  .....
>
> And still they pop up to be refuted once more, and then  ....
>
> Interesting.
>
> Carrol
>
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