[Milton-L] Fallen vs. Unfallen Sex

richard strier rastrier at uchicago.edu
Wed Jul 20 18:00:35 EDT 2011

But how can sex between A and E be "casual," and it's certainly not "retail."  I 
don''t see how any of this is relevant to PL -- though I must say that, even to a 
mere male, the distinctions you note seem pretty obvious.

---- Original message ----
>Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 17:39:28 -0400
>From: milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu (on behalf of "Carol Barton" 
<cbartonphd1 at verizon.net>)
>Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Fallen vs. Unfallen Sex  
>To: "John Milton Discussion List" <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
>I think the distinction between fallen and unfallen sex might be 
>easier for women to comprehend, Richard (and that's 
>not--intentionally--a sexist comment). There is a real distinction for 
>most women between making love (unfallen sex, if you will) and the 
>sort of wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am engagement that occurs between 
>partners (or those involved in a retail relationship).
>Nudity and nakedness are different? I had no idea . . . but with a 
>heat index of 102F and climbing (around 35C for those who don't 
>Fahrenheit) I think I'd welcome being either one . . .
>Best to all,
>Carol Barton
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "richard strier" <rastrier at uchicago.edu>
>To: "John Milton Discussion List" <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
>Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 3:51 PM
>Subject: Re: [Milton-L] It's Confirmed!
>Well, I don't hold the view (which some philosophers--e.g. Roger 
>Scruton) hold
>that great art can't be erotically stimulating.  Seems like a silly 
>view.  Lots of
>great Renaissance art is very sexy.  MIlton insists -- surely with his 
>male readers
>in mind (but not only, of course) -- on Eve's gorgeousness and her 
>nakedness. No reason for us, or her, to feel ashamed, and no reason 
>for us (or
>her, or Adam) not to feel erotically aroused.
>And, to say something that will surely invite/incite some responses, I 
>think the
>supposed contrast between the fallen and unfallen sex of A and E to be 
>And, finally, I think the supposed distinction between nudity and 
>(Kenneth Clark) also to be bogus (let's all pretend to be very 
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