[Milton-L] the Immaculate Conception (clarified)

Nairba Sirrah nairbasirrah at msn.com
Sun Dec 19 02:26:28 EST 2010


Hello Jeffery,
 
good hearing from you. But..
 
no, again. If your statement were true it would be dealing with the birth of Mary. Conception refers to the conceiving of a child, a fetus. The person being conceived in the most famous case of "immaculate conception" is JESUS. Jesus! you both know what I meant.
 
As for the Biblical passages quoted by Professor Danielson, all of us scholars know there are many, many different translations of that particular book and verse...and have several very different wordings and implications.
 
But in them all, is the declaration made by god; the divine mandate of "this is what is going to happen to you." How Mary responds, as far as my contention is concerened, is irrelevant. God didn't offer her a choice.
 
Giving a declaration of impregnating a woman is a violation of that woman's sanctity, no who (or what) makes that declaration. Her response could simply have been a moment of accepting inneviatablity. For all we know, she was mortified. Or madder than Hell.
 


Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 23:15:00 -0800
From: jefferyhodges at yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Milton-L] the Immaculate Conception (response)
To: milton-l at lists.richmond.edu






Nairba, you are wrong. The immaculate conception refers to the process by which Mary was conceived, not the process by which Jesus was conceived.
 
Jeffery Hodges






From: Nairba Sirrah <nairbasirrah at msn.com>
To: milton-l at lists.richmond.edu
Sent: Sun, December 19, 2010 4:05:04 PM
Subject: RE: [Milton-L] the Immaculate Conception (response)



amazing you bothered to post that..."the immaculate conception" is the conception of JESUS inside Mary. It is therefore, quite "concerned" with both Mary and Jesus, and God.
 
and to append the word "doctrine" to it is absurd.
 
Some of you with your detial debating are truly frightening.
 
> Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 01:56:09 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] the Immaculate Conception (response)
> From: alanshorn at gmail.com
> To: milton-l at lists.richmond.edu
> 
> Once again, as Professor Danielson pointed out to you, the doctrine of
> Immaculate Conception is concerned with the conception of Mary, not of
> Jesus.
> 
> Alan
> 
> On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 1:37 AM, Nairba Sirrah <nairbasirrah at msn.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hello Dennis,
> >
> > didn't mean to infuriate. But that unfortunately happens a lot on here.
> >
> > In response, of course the Roman Catholic church is going to see it that way. But the main essence of the story is that Mary did not have a choice. God was the father. And she was the mother. She got preganant by divine insemination.
> >
> > As hard as it may be to face or admit, the "immacualate conception" by ancient and modern definition IS rape. She had no choice. Not exactly immaculate. Had God asked her permission, then fine. But as is, it was rape.
> >
> > Not to mention she was already married to another man. Adultery.
> >
> > And as for it not having anything to do with Milton, in Milton Jesus is "begotten" in Heaven. And considering he soon after fought in a war, was also born an adult.
> >
> > What's so wrong about considering the physical implications of these spiritual narratives? In Milton, we are to suppose that "the Son" is zapped into her uterus and reborn...but as you so graciosly pointed out, in Luke it clearly says she will conceive, meaning a sexual bonding between father and mother.
> >
> > Again, sorry for the offence and infuriation, but a fact is a fact.
> >
> >
> > > Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 21:42:13 -0800
> > > From: danielso at interchange.ubc.ca
> > > Subject: Re: [Milton-L] the Immaculate Conception
> > > To: milton-l at lists.richmond.edu
> > >
> > > OK, so this hasn't much to do with Milton. And perhaps I shouldn't rise
> > > to the bait. But Mr. Sirrah's assumptions are apparently false
> > > (infuriating, too, but let that pass) on two counts:
> > >
> > > 1. The Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception states that
> > > *Mary* was conceived without sin; it wasn't officially formulated as
> > > dogma until the 19th century.
> > >
> > > 2. If Sirrah means to say that *Mary* was impregnated against her will,
> > > that statement is contrary to the plain meaning of the biblical account
> > > of Luke 2:26-38 (See below, noting the future tense in the angel's "you
> > > will conceive," plus Mary's compliant response).
> > >
> > > I'm done, except to thank Louis Schwartz for his eminently sensible
> > > comments yesterday, and to wish my fellow Miltonists all the blessings
> > > of the season, whatever feasts or festivals they observe.
> > >
> > > Dennis Danielson
> > > _______________________
> > >
> > > Luke 2:26-38
> > >
> > > In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel
> > > to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, to a virgin pledged to be married to a
> > > man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. The
> > > angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The
> > > Lord is with you.”
> > >
> > > Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of
> > > greeting this might be. But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid,
> > > Mary; you have found favor with God. You will conceive and give birth to
> > > a son, and you are to call him Jesus. He will be great and will be
> > > called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne
> > > of his father David, and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever;
> > > his kingdom will never end.”
> > >
> > > “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”
> > >
> > > The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of
> > > the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be
> > > called[b] the Son of God. Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have
> > > a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is
> > > in her sixth month. For no word from God will ever fail.”
> > >
> > > “I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May your word to me be
> > > fulfilled.”
> > >
> > >
> > > On 10-12-18 9:07 PM, Nairba Sirrah wrote:
> > > > in the vein of considering the classic epic hero and the classic epic
> > > > villain, let us remember that "the immaculate conception" was (if it
> > > > actually happened) categorically...rape. Anytime you impregnate a woman
> > > > against her will, it is rape.
> > > >
> > > > So if Satan is the hero, guess who's the villain.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Dennis Danielson
> > > Professor of English
> > > University of British Columbia
> > > #397 - 1873 East Mall
> > > Vancouver, BC, Canada V6T 1Z1
> > > telephone: 604-822-4092
> > > Author: The First Copernican
> > > Editor: Paradise Lost, Parallel Prose Edition
> > > WEB: http://faculty.arts.ubc.ca/ddaniels/
> > > _______________________________________________
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