[Milton-L] Re: Is Paradise Lost

jonnyangel junkopardner at comcast.net
Sat Apr 18 05:54:28 EDT 2009


> 
> In terms of being patronizing and condescending, I really don't think you have
> anything to apologize for. You have been a champion along both lines for some
> time now on this list. And your rhetorical habit of invoking violence, and
> vague threats thereof...do you extend this habit to your bricks-and-mortar,
> offline life?>>>>>>>
> 
> Yes, I am both patronizing and condescending, and the ³violence² you speak of
> is ³figurative² as it pertains to my postings on this list. In the offline,
> brick and mortar world, its another story. Why? Because people have a tendency
> to say things online that they wouldn¹t say staring into someone¹s eyes. I
> don¹t get disrespected in my offline, brick and mortar world. I think I
> remember an esteemed Milton scholar on this very list calling me a ³putz² some
> time ago. My question is would they say that to my face? I highly doubt it.
> 
> 
> Do you treat your fellow students, your professors, as you often treat the
> members of this list? I hope not, for their sakes, if not for yours.>>>>>>>>
> 
> I treat everyone I¹ve met (and meet) the same. There is no ³online/offline²
> me. I am opinionated and passionate, and maybe that doesn¹t translate so well
> on the WWW. 
> 
> 
> Honestly, when does enough become enough? When will you grow weary of playing
> the bully here?>>>>>>>>
> 
> I am not ³bullying², and I haven¹t from the day I joined this list. But I
> don¹t put up with BS being slung at me either.
> 
> 
> You claim that professors should respect students (and performers should
> respect their audiences), but you give no respect--you merely expect it.>>>>>
> 
> That¹s where you¹re dead wrong. I don¹t ³expect² respect, and I never have.
> But I (for some crazy reason) expect not to be disrespected when I speak. I
> give respect until I am disrespected. I would rather take people by the hand,
> but if they are going to disrespect me, then taking them by the throat will
> have to do. When the question was asked if PL was the greatest work ever
> written in the English language, I said it was beyond the shadow of a doubt.
> When Bill was introduced, I was ready to go to work. But the question was
> ³inane², wasn¹t it? And so was my response. It was reduced to Godzilla vs.
> King Kong, and subsequently dismissed. But having studied Shakespeare far
> longer than Milton, I feel passionately about Milton and can honestly say that
> when it comes to poetry there is no comparison, and when it comes to the
> English language, let¹s go. But some people feel that it an exercise in
> futility and that it¹s ³inane². To those people, I would like to refer them to
> history of poetry that involves A LOT of heavy competition, comparisons, and
> arguments over who was ³better². This is NOT inane. This is what gasoline is
> to the fire. 
> 
> 
> You go to great lengths to present yourself here as a rhetorically violent
> snowflake who thinks his opinions are to be given weight because they are his,
> and because they are expressed by someone who is not shy about telling the
> rest of us how large and strong he is, and how willing he is to physically
> (and/or otherwise) assault any and all who dare disagree with him, or find his
> rhetorical stance incredibly boorish.>>>>>>
> 
> I never said anything on this list about ³physical² violence. I find the list
> as whole to be in tip-top shape, very cordial and informative. But there are
> people on this list (excluding me), that take themselves far too seriously -
> disagree with me all you want, and then let¹s start hashing it out. Do you
> think Shakespeare was a ³better² poet/writer than Milton? If you say yes, then
> the onus is on your back. Let¹s get it going. If you think it¹s ³inane², then
> let¹s drop it, because I¹m fine with that too. And it¹s not someone
> disagreeing with me that get¹s me riled; it¹s the disrespectful tone of the
> disagreement in question. As for the ³rhetorical stance², what else do I have?
> I put my line in the water, but no one was biting because they thought
> question posed was inane. So be it.
> 
> You like to stir things up.>>>>>>>
> 
> Yes sir. 
> 
> 
> That's often a good thing.>>>>>>>
> 
> It¹d ³always² a good thing. Have you ever panned for Gold? I mean, literally?
> 
> But, to be perfectly frank, you have stirred things up to the point that this
> list is suffering for it. Who benefits? What end is served? What do you get
> out of this, other than the pleasure of telling us all off now and then, since
> we "in the sublime clique of academia"  believe, apparently, that
> undergraduates "should just kiss the summa cum laude ring on the royal fingers
> with a reverend knee dug in the ground"? Why would you want to talk to us, any
> of us, if that is how you see us?>>>>>>>
> 
> As much as I like to see myself quoted, you did ask a question. I want to talk
> to everyone I come into contact with, on or off line. But I want to ³really²
> talk. From the whores and bums I spent months with from the gutters of NYC and
> San Francisco, to the top a most of the pop a most of academia; there ³is² no
> difference to me. But since I¹ve started school this year (and joined this
> list), I have seen a sickening disease of condescension within academia. And
> often in my classes, I feel sorry for a lot of my fellow students that are in
> their late teens/early twenties where I sit and watch them at 37 years old as
> my ³peers". I have learned a lot , and even taught some myself over this past
> year, and my ³peers² and professors all love me alike. I could name you many,
> many people on this list that I respect and admire, staring with Roy Flannigan
> and Louis Schwartz, and they have never kicked dirt in my eyes (and Roy¹s book
> is pretty heavy to lug around, and I curse him sometimes, but I eventually
> forgive him and place the blame on the publisher).
> 
> And to answer your other questions of who benefits and what end it all serves,
> let¹s just leave that giant question mark hanging over the end credits of one
> of my favorite Godzilla movies.
> 
> 
> Toasting you and your health,
> 
> JA
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Michael Bryson
> 
> ---- Original message ----
>> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 03:28:06 -0400
>> From: jonnyangel <junkopardner at comcast.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Re: Is Paradise Lost
>> To: John Milton Discussion List <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Salwa, 
>> 
>> ³Sublime², as you say, could not exist without the inane, could it? So in
>> that sense, the ³inane² serves a very important function. For instance, it
>> provides academics the opportunity to be patronizing and condescending to
>> those they believe to be intellectually anemic and inferior to them. So,
>> heck, following that line of ³inane² rational, you should probably, uh, I
>> don¹t know...send me a Thank You card? No? Well, ok...
>> 
>> Look, I¹m just a student, alright? I don¹t have a BA, MFA or PhD after my
>> name (and even if I did I would still get better dental care in jail). The
>> question of whether or not PL is the greatest work ever written in the
>> English language was not my question; I just simply responded to it. When
>> Bill got drug out of the Œol closet, I said what I had to say about his
>> ³poetry² and body of work compared to Milton. I was personally received with
>> some disrespect, and what did I do? Well, I gave some back. Some have said
>> that I live in the Old Testament, but I really don¹t. In my world, if you
>> take one of my eyes, I¹ll take ³both² of yours, and then I¹ll tell you (as
>> you¹re stumbling around in darkness) that in the land of the blind, the one
>> eyed man is king. I know it¹s unfair, but this is also why you shouldn¹t flip
>> strangers off ­ because you never know...
>> And for the life of me I can¹t understand why someone who is disrespectful to
>> someone should expect anything else in return. Madonna sang, ³We are
>> living/in a Material World², and John Milton sang that we are living in a
>> Post Lapsarian world (same song, really). I didn¹t break the world, I just
>> shuck all the blame onto my first Grandparent's while wading though the mess
>> that they left me in their will.
>> And what would you do if someone suggested (on a Milton list, no less) that
>> you should be removed? Oh, that¹s right, I almost forgot ­ you will never
>> face something so egregious because you¹re in the sublime clique of academia,
>> and students like myself should just kiss the summa cum laude ring on the
>> royal fingers with a reverend knee dug in the ground.
>> I¹m not directing this at you personally, but respect is a two way street.
>> And I don¹t care if you¹re a Professor or the second coming of Otis Redding,
>> the former should still respect their students and the latter should still
>> respect their audience ­ because, without them, the Crystal Ball says ³Clean
>> up on Aisle 9². 
>> 
>> In closing, I read ³The Enclosed Garden in C.S. Lewis¹ The Chronicles of
>> Narnia², and thought overall it was well done. See? You Love C.S. Lewis, and
>> I¹ve loved and studied him since I was a child in theology school. And with
>> all due respect to this ³inane² thread and your two cents on it, my feeling
>> is that your silent treatment is probably best.
>> 
>> Shalom, 
>> 
>> Jonny 
>> 
>> 
>> I am like God, and God like me.
>> I am as large as God, he is as small as I:
>> He cannot above me, nor I beneath him be.
>> 
>> - Silesius, "The Cherubic Wanderer."
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 4/18/09 12:48 AM, "Salwa Khoddam" <skhoddam at cox.net> wrote:
>> 
>>> Dear Milton Scholars,
>>> I agree with S.Tertius and others who voiced their opinions about this
>>> recent thread of "inane" comments.  Why is it that we are keeping this
>>> "inane" discussion thread going?  Could we not get to the "sublime" without
>>> going through the "inane"? I don't know what to say against this avalanche
>>> of disrespectful and warped opinions. I look to this list as a scholarly
>>> source to advance my knowledge of Milton.  I have learned  much from you and
>>> hope to continue to do so.  Yes, Milton would burn "inane" books, although
>>> he would allow them to be published.  So must we use the "delete" key for
>>> "inane" statements.  Without a moderator, the silent treatment is best.
>>>  
>>> Salwa Khoddam
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>  
>>>> From:  Scriblerus Tertius <mailto:scriblerustertius at yahoo.com>
>>>>  
>>>> To: milton-l at lists.richmond.edu
>>>>  
>>>> Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 1:47 PM
>>>>  
>>>> Subject: [Milton-L] Re: Is Paradise  Lost
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> Mr. Angel, 
>>>>  
>>>> I'm glad to know that you can make words using the most commonly occuring
>>>> letters in the English language, but I do not understand what you are
>>>> blathering about. Maybe your synapses are not firing because I never
>>>> asserted to know Milton better than you.  Milton wasn't "all about
>>>> censorship." He only wanted things with no orientation to his particular
>>>> truth  censored. A close reading of _Areopagitica_ will bear that out.
>>>> Methinks I hit  a nerve.
>>>>  
>>>> Best,
>>>>  
>>>> S. Tertius
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> Message: 1
>>>> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 01:08:56 -0400
>>>> 
>>>> From: jonnyangel  <junkopardner at comcast.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Re: Is Paradise  Lost
>>>> To: John Milton Discussion List  <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
>>>> Message-ID:  <C60D8728.165F%junkopardner at comcast.net>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain;  charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>> 
>>>> You know, if ³names² counted in Scrabble, and I  had all the letters of
>>>> your
>>>> name, I think I could win every  time.
>>>> 
>>>> And you obviously know and understand Milton far greater that I  ever
>>>> could,
>>>> because you can see that he was all about censorship, whereas  I¹ve been
>>>> blinded to that.
>>>> 
>>>> So, thanks.
>>>> 
>>>> [chewing my  self-censoring tongue bloody]
>>>> 
>>>> JA 
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
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>>>> 
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>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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