[Milton-L] Some Graver Subject

Carrol Cox cbcox at ilstu.edu
Tue Jun 24 20:27:10 EDT 2008



Alice Crawford Berghof wrote:
> 
> Sorry about the Freudian typo.
> Alice


In order todiscover the typo I would have to copy your post into a Word
file, set it at bold face, and set a font size of 14 or 16. My eyes
(macular degeneration) simply won't pick out small details in a text.
Could you quote the exact phase?

Carrol

> 
> Begin forwarded message:
> 
>      From: Alice Crawford Berghof <aberghof at uci.edu>
>      Date: June 24, 2008 4:56:31 PM PDT
>      To: John Milton Discussion List <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
>      Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Abdiel
> 
>      I am remembering that Broadbent in Some Greater Subject (page 80?) said that only the fallen speak in soliloquy. Might there be an important distinction between speaking alone in soliloquy, speaking in dialogue in the form of an ode, and, finally, internal monologue? All three are departures from "discourse meet" (as opposed to "discourse more sweet") but the latter two can be prelapsarian or angelic. In this sense, one must distinguish among the following:
>      1. Satan's frequent soliloquies early in PL
>      2. Eve's prelapsarian ode of IX ("Great are thy virtues, doubtless, best of fruits")
>      3. Adam's internal monologue ("O fairest of creation" - formulaic and in this sense distinct from what ensues from the line "Bold deed thou hast presumed, advent'rous Eve").
>      Rather than establishing a sliding scale for fallen discourse, we could establish one for prelapsarian or angelic asides and internal monologues.
>      Alice Berghof
> 
>      On Jun 24, 2008, at 1:40 PM, Michael Gillum wrote:
> 
>           I guess Eve and Adam are "falling" rather than fallen or unfallen at the
>           time of their interior monologues-- as James Watt says, the categories have
>           a blurred zone between them. It's interesting that Adam's interior monologue
>           registering his decision is direct and certain like Abdiel's-- then his
>           following speech to Eve is more convoluted, like her interior monologue.
> 
>           Michael
> 
>           On 6/24/08 4:03 PM, "Judith Herz" <jherz at alcor.concordia.ca> wrote:
> 
>                Eve, then Adam, as each begins the process of talking themselves into
>                falling, hence the fractured self. One can certainly claim, as I am in the
>                process of doing in a related argument, that fracture is the name (or, at
>                least, one of the names) of the PL game.
>                Judith Herz
> 
>                ----- Original Message -----
>                From: "Michael Gillum" <mgillum at unca.edu>
>                To: "milton-l" <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
>                Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 3:36 PM
>                Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Abdiel
> 
>                     Incidentally, I thought Coiro's review was well done except that I was
>                     puzzled by this section. I wonder if there are other interior monologues
>                     by
>                     unfallen characters in the poem besides Abdiel's at 6.114.
> 
>                     About Abdiel following Satan initially: Satan instructed Beelzebub to
>                     "Tell
>                     them that by command I am to haste. . . homeward. . . there to prepare fit
>                     entertainment. . ." (5.685-90). So Satan's followers thought they were
>                     following God's orders. It's true that Beelzebub cast "ambiguous words and
>                     jealousies" (5.703) among his orders to the sub-commanders, but no telling
>                     whether these reached Abdiel.
> 
>                     Michael
> 
>                     On 6/24/08 2:12 PM, "Watt, James" <jwatt at butler.edu> wrote:
> 
>                          Thanks Michael:
> 
>                          I am always amused by Miltonists who are determined to out angel his
>                          angels.
>                          Here I am especially pleased to learn that Ms. Coiro believes that
>                          subjectivity is a mark of the Fall (especially interesting in light of
>                          the
>                          high degree of subjective and interior reflection manifested by the
>                          Elohim).
>                          I wonder if gender is another mark of fallen subjectivity? Or hell, what
>                          about simple sex?
> 
>                          Jim Watt
>                          ________________________________________
>                          From: milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu
>                          [milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu] On Behalf Of Michael Gillum
>                          [mgillum at unca.edu]
>                          Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 11:31 AM
>                          To: milton-l
>                          Subject: [Milton-L] Abdiel
> 
>                          Not much discussion of Milton’s poetry here lately. What are people’s
>                          reactions to these points?
> 
>                          “Abdiel is a decidedly mixed character >> capable of an interior
>                          monologue, a mark of fallen subjectivity; and he is
>                          more zealous than brilliant in his argument with his fallen general. If
>                          there
>                          is Miltonic representation here it is fractured and self-critical.”
> 
>                          --Ann Baynes Coiro, review of Stephen Fallon’s new book in latest MQ.
> 
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