[Milton-L] Re: the wings again

Roy Flannagan roy at gwm.sc.edu
Wed Jan 2 21:05:26 EST 2008


OK.  I will stand on what I wrote and what the Bishop told me was now
orthodox: that Jesus could not be an angel and that that assumption was
based on the first chapter in Hebrews, which does after all say that the
Son is "made so much better than the angels."

Now can we go to bed soon?

Roy F

>>> jefferyhodges at yahoo.com 1/2/2008 8:01:56 PM >>>
Roy, I don't think that 1.9 is referred back to in 1.11 because the
former is a quote from Psalm 45.6-7 (where the companions might be
angels), whereas the latter is a quote from Psalm 102.25-27, which
doesn't refer to angels, not even in its context.
   
  Verses 10-11 in Hebrews chapter 1 compose a unit used as a prooftext,
and the "they" that will perish will also be 'rolled up' -- an
eschatological image sometimes used with reference to the end of the
heavens and the earth, which, being 'flat', could be rolled up.
   
  So, I don't see strong evidence that the "they" includes angels
(unless one argues that the earth and the heavens that will perish
necessarily includes those creatures that inhabit these places -- but
which 'heavens' is being referred to here, anyway, merely the sky or
also the divine realm?).
   
  But I'm open to persuasion.
   
  Jeffery Hodges

Roy Flannagan <roy at gwm.sc.edu> wrote:
  Jeffery,

I think Milton most likely identified Paul as the author of Hebrews,
whether he was or not. The angels are last mentioned in 1.7, but
surely
they are included in the "they" that grow old and perish, who seem to
be
the "fellows" of 1.9. By 1.13, "angels" are back, and in 1.14 we are
back to "ministering spirits."

Roy F

>>> jefferyhodges at yahoo.com 1/2/2008 7:25:19 PM >>>
Well, "odd contributions" are a specialty of the Milton List -- as
many
of my own emails would prove...

But doesn't Hebrews 1:11 refer to the earth and the heavens? I don't
see angels being specified as the "they" that will perish.

By the way, Paul is not usually considered the author of Hebrews
(though there is a minority opinion that he wrote it).

Jeffery (note the "-ery") Hodges

Roy Flannagan wrote:
This will be an odd contribution to this discussion, but I just
talked
to a friend who is the ex-Bishop of Pittsburgh (Episcopal) to get a
theological opinion, and he tells me that, based on a distinction made
in Hebrews, Jesus cannot be regarded as an angel (after death, of
course). My response to this is an uneducated one, and the Bishop's of
course is Protestant, but Hebrews 1.4 does expressly say that the Son
is
"made so much better than the angels" and the angels "shall perish;
but
thou ["Lord"] remainest, and they all shall wax old as doth a garment"
(1.11, quoted from the AV). So, for Paul, the angels are mortal and
the
Son is not.

Now, Giotto, together with his followers as collected by Jeffrey
Hodges, still might have associated the figure that came to St.
Francis
in the dream as being less and less seraphic and more and more like
Christ on the cross. I wonder if Giotto didn't start something. After
all, his fresco is in Assisi.

Roy Flannagan

>>> jefferyhodges at yahoo.com 1/2/2008 6:11:00 PM >>>
For convenience in viewing, I've now posted all those images on my
blog, along with some of our commentary:


http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/2008/01/saint-francis-receiving-stigmata-from_03.html




I had imagined that posting these would be simple, but I spent two
hours on it! Still, the result was worth the time invested.

Jeffery Hodges

gilliaca at jmu.edu wrote:
>> I am, however, glad that the question was posed, for
> I might otherwise never have become of aware of this
> fascinating series of artworks depicting a
> extraordinary winged Christ . . . or perhaps an
> ordinary winged seraph who happens to be crucified
> and looks exactly like Christ.


Yes - those are stunning! And I expect you - and others - are right
about the biblical reference as source. But look at what enchanting
places we got led to as, in my case, I pretend that Monday will NOT
bring the start of classes.
C
Cynthia A. Gilliatt
English Department, JMU
JMU Safe Zones participant
"You have made God in your own image when God hates the same people
you
hate." Fr. John Weston
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University Degrees:

Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
(Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic
Texts")
M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

Email Address:

jefferyhodges at yahoo.com 

Blog:

http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/ 

Office Address:

Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
School of English, Kyung Hee University
1 Hoegi-dong, Dongdaemun-gu
Seoul, 130-701
South Korea

Home Address:

Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
Gunyoung Apt. 102-204
Sangbong-dong 1
Jungnang-gu
Seoul 131-771
South Korea
_______________________________________________
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Milton-L at lists.richmond.edu 
Manage your list membership and access list archives at
http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l 



University Degrees:

Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
(Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic
Texts")
M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

Email Address:

jefferyhodges at yahoo.com 

Blog:

http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/ 

Office Address:

Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
School of English, Kyung Hee University
1 Hoegi-dong, Dongdaemun-gu
Seoul, 130-701
South Korea

Home Address:

Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
Gunyoung Apt. 102-204
Sangbong-dong 1
Jungnang-gu
Seoul 131-771
South Korea
_______________________________________________
Milton-L mailing list
Milton-L at lists.richmond.edu 
Manage your list membership and access list archives at
http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l 



University Degrees:

Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
(Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic
Texts")
M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

Email Address:

jefferyhodges at yahoo.com 

Blog:

http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/ 

Office Address:

Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
School of English, Kyung Hee University
1 Hoegi-dong, Dongdaemun-gu
Seoul, 130-701
South Korea

Home Address:

Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
Gunyoung Apt. 102-204
Sangbong-dong 1
Jungnang-gu
Seoul 131-771
South Korea


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