[Milton-L] two small queries

Miklos Peti peti_miklos at hotmail.com
Mon Dec 1 18:17:35 EST 2008


Dear All,

Regarding the "us" in line 475: may we interpret "hither" in this place as "To this end, aim, or result; to this subject, class, or category" (OED 4th def)? I. e. instead of referring to his actual journey to Paradise,  Satan is saying "what brought all of us fallen angels to this condition that I am in now"?

All the best,

Miklós

> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 16:00:50 -0500
> From: milton-l-request at lists.richmond.edu
> Subject: Milton-L Digest, Vol 25, Issue 3
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> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. Milton Birthday Celebration - Chattanooga (Kemmer Anderson)
>    2. Re: Fish on Danielson in NY Times (Carl Bellinger)
>    3. Stanley Fish and Dennis Danielsen (Nancy Charlton)
>    4. two small queries (Miklos Peti)
>    5. Re: two small queries (James Rovira)
>    6. RE: two small queries (Schwartz, Louis)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2008 12:08:53 -0500
> From: Kemmer Anderson <kanderso at mccallie.org>
> Subject: [Milton-L] Milton Birthday Celebration - Chattanooga
> To: John Milton Discussion List <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
> Message-ID: <200812011208195.SM02252 at kanderso.mccallie.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed
> 
> Anderson Goes Milton for 'McCallie After Dark'
> 
> 12/1/2008
> McCallie's unique series of lectures and 
> workshops, led by veteran members of its faculty, 
> starts up this school year with an exploration of 
> literary great John Milton by English teacher R. Kemmer Anderson...
> 
> "McCallie After Dark" kicks off its 2008-09 
> season with a special exploration of John Milton 
> by English teacher R. Kemmer Anderson, who has 
> taught on the Ridge for 31 years and who has 
> spent extensive time and energy researching Milton's life and works.
> 
> MILTON TURNS 400
> Tuesday, December 9
> 7:00 p.m.
> Brock-Lazenby Room, Dining Hall
> 
>  From Mr. Anderson:
> 
> On December 9, 2008, we celebrate the 400th 
> birthday of John Milton. John Milton’s ideas 
> immigrated to America in the form of books. His 
> voice shaped the school copybooks of our American 
> founders. His Tenure of Magistrates and Kings 
> argued for the execution of a king and later 
> echoed from the preamble of the Declaration of 
> Independence. His vision of Eden became the model 
> for the English garden – a garden later 
> transplanted to our native soil. Milton’s Satan 
> caught the imagination of artists when the fiend 
> meets Adam and Eve in Paradise Lost and Jesus in 
> Paradise Regained. In our time some scholars 
> believe Milton’s Samson Agonistes haunts the polemic of a terrorist.
> 
>  From Chalmers McIlwaine to George Hazard, John 
> Milton has shaped McCallie teachers and students 
> with a rhythm and rhetoric of a sound English 
> epic. Join us for an evening of poetry, politics, 
> illustrations, and birthday cake to remember John 
> Milton, poet and prophet of liberty and free will.
> 
> Please join us on the Ridge for what promises to 
> be a unique and enlightening look at one of 
> literature's great and lasting figures, a 
> presentation guaranteed to be quite unlike 
> anything you are likely to find. As hundreds if 
> not thousands of alumni can attest, Kemmer "Yogi" Anderson is one-of-a-kind.
> 
> <mailto:facdev at mccallie.org?subject=RSVP - MAD - 
> Anderson, December 9>Please RSVP to Faculty 
> Development and include the number of people 
> planning to attend. Light refreshments will be provided.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 14:49:18 -0500
> From: "Carl Bellinger" <bcarlb at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Fish on Danielson in NY Times
> To: "John Milton Discussion List" <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
> Message-ID: <006a01c953ed$e63afd70$6299774c at owner2e39e73fd>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> Fish on Danielson in NY TimesThanks much, Curt!
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Curt LaFond 
>   To: John Milton Discussion List 
>   Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 9:46 AM
>   Subject: [Milton-L] Fish on Danielson in NY Times
> 
> 
>   Members of the Milton List might be interested to read Fish's appreciation for Danielson's Parallel Prose Edition of PL in today's New York Times:
> 
>   http://fish.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/30/paradise-lost-in-prose/
> 
> 
>   Regards,
> 
>   Curt LaFond
>   Lurker
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 12:07:57 -0800 (PST)
> From: Nancy Charlton <pastorale55 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: [Milton-L] Stanley Fish and Dennis Danielsen
> To: Milton-L at lists.richmond.edu
> Message-ID: <626252.41358.qm at web58307.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> http://fish.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/30/paradise-lost-in-prose/#comment-33595
> 
> You've all probably heard by now, Stanley Fish discusses Dennis Danielsen's parallel poem/prose PL on his NY Times blog today.
> 
> Nancy Charlton
> 
> http://groups.google.com/group/paradiselostdaily
> 
> 
> 
> . . . Till old experience do attain
> 
> To something like prophetic strain.  (Il Penseroso)
> 
> 
>       
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 20:31:20 +0000
> From: Miklos Peti <peti_miklos at hotmail.com>
> Subject: [Milton-L] two small queries
> To: <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
> Message-ID: <BAY122-W40393ED5281F38CAB00AC987010 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Scholars,
> 
> (Forgive me if any of these have been posted before, and if so, please direct me to the appropriate archives.)
> 
> I'm teaching Book 9 of PL in these last weeks of the term, and I'd like to ask for your comment on the following two points -- that is, if they are at all problematic:
> 
> 1. in line 242 Adam says to Eve "for not to irksom toile, but to delight He made us"
> The question for me is: how may Adam know about the "irksomeness" of toil? 
> According to a quick search I've made "irksom" appears on two other occasions in the epic: in Book 2 the fallen angels "entertain / The irksom hours", until Satan returns (lines: 526-7), and in Book 5 Eve refers to the night of her dream as "irksom nigt" (line 35). In both of the cases the use of the word is understandable: it derives from experience. But Adam has neither knowledge nor experience of "hard work" so how can he make it part of an argument?
> 
> 
> 2. This is something that one of my students called the attention to: Satan moved by Eve's beauty "gratulating" asks himself: "Thoughts, whither have ye led me, with what sweet / Compulsion thus transported to forget / What hither brought us" (lines 473-475) The use of the plural "us" might be explained on stylistical grounds (majestic plural?), but is there any other possibility to account for this shift in number?
> 
> The commentaries I have access to are silent on these points. Many thanks in advance 
> for your comments and insights.
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Miklós
> 
> Miklós Péti 
> senior lecturer
> Károli Gáspár University
> Budapest, Hungary
> 
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 15:39:59 -0500
> From: "James Rovira" <jamesrovira at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] two small queries
> To: "John Milton Discussion List" <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
> Message-ID:
> 	<411af8540812011239y3a533a24w9e6b15a79fcb4932 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> RE: the second question, is it possible that Milton is speaking to himself
> and all his thoughts as being brought along by sweet compulsion (hence, the
> "us")?  So Milton the person as opposed to his thoughts would be "me," but
> Milton along with all his thoughts, once his thoughts have been personified,
> would be "us."  Since he's speaking of movement in the last quoted line, and
> since his thoughts would go along with him wherever he went, speaking of
> Milton and his thoughts as an "us" seems necessary.
> 
> Jim R
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 15:59:33 -0500
> From: "Schwartz, Louis" <lschwart at richmond.edu>
> Subject: RE: [Milton-L] two small queries
> To: "'John Milton Discussion List'" <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
> Message-ID:
> 	<E9B586C82ACB5B4BB072ACBC5C552FF20F35820336 at UREXCHANGESCC.richmond.edu>
> 	
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> Dear Miklós,
> 
> The simplest answer is not always the best answer, but the simplest answer to your first question would be that Adam is trying to suggest what's wrong with what Eve has just suggested to him:  that they might be able to get more accomplished if they were to work separately.  He does this by exaggerating one implication of what she's said.  Note that in her speech she characterizes their work as "pleasant."  She seems to me to want more pleasure in her own creative activity, to accomplish more of the sort of thing that pleases her in the work.  Adam responds with a mild version of reductio ad absurdum.  Who said this work was hard?  Why do we need to accomplish more by separating?
> 
> Satan's "us" does seem mainly to be the "royal" version of the 1st person plural, but that in itself suggests how he thinks of himself as on a mission for sake of all of his fallen comrades.  He can't let himself get sidetracked by his own desires for Eve or for some saving compulsion to do good.
> 
> Louis
> 
> ===========================
> Louis Schwartz
> Associate Professor of English
> University of Richmond
> Richmond, VA  23173
> (804) 289-8315
> lschwart at richmond.edu<mailto:lschwart at richmond.edu>
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu [mailto:milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu] On Behalf Of Miklos Peti
> Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 3:31 PM
> To: milton-l at lists.richmond.edu
> Subject: [Milton-L] two small queries
> 
> Dear Scholars,
> 
> (Forgive me if any of these have been posted before, and if so, please direct me to the appropriate archives.)
> 
> I'm teaching Book 9 of PL in these last weeks of the term, and I'd like to ask for your comment on the following two points -- that is, if they are at all problematic:
> 
> 1. in line 242 Adam says to Eve "for not to irksom toile, but to delight He made us"
> The question for me is: how may Adam know about the "irksomeness" of toil?
> According to a quick search I've made "irksom" appears on two other occasions in the epic: in Book 2 the fallen angels "entertain / The irksom hours", until Satan returns (lines: 526-7), and in Book 5 Eve refers to the night of her dream as "irksom nigt" (line 35). In both of the cases the use of the word is understandable: it derives from experience. But Adam has neither knowledge nor experience of "hard work" so how can he make it part of an argument?
> 
> 
> 2. This is something that one of my students called the attention to: Satan moved by Eve's beauty "gratulating" asks himself: "Thoughts, whither have ye led me, with what sweet / Compulsion thus transported to forget / What hither brought us" (lines 473-475) The use of the plural "us" might be explained on stylistical grounds (majestic plural?), but is there any other possibility to account for this shift in number?
> 
> The commentaries I have access to are silent on these points. Many thanks in advance
> for your comments and insights.
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Miklós
> 
> Miklós Péti
> senior lecturer
> Károli Gáspár University
> Budapest, Hungary
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> Connect to the next generation of MSN Messenger  Get it now! <http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/default.aspx?locale=en-us&source=wlmailtagline>
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