[Milton-L] Re: AV/KJV

Alan Rudrum rudrum at shaw.ca
Mon Sep 17 18:15:43 EDT 2007


Some 47 years ago I did what H.H. suggested, but with Donne, not 
Andrewes.  A neighbour of mine in Australia, a High School English 
teacher,  was a Methodist lay preacher and we did a service with early 
modern music, prayers from the BCP and a Donne sermon which I (also at 
that time a lay preacher, but Anglican) spoke from the pulpit 
(admittedly edited down a bit - I still have it somewhere).  It was 
great fun and certainly helped me to understand how extraordinarily well 
Donne wrote for the spoken word - everything I learned from the 
Australian Broadcasting Corporation about words and collocations that 
should as far as possible be avoided, Donne had figured out for himself.

HANNIBAL HAMLIN wrote:
> I'm replying somewhat late, and only in the middle of sorting through 
> emails, so I apologize if this seems out of line with the current 
> state of the discussion (a very interesting one, in all it's 
> permutations!).  In response to Carl Bellinger's question about 
> students reading the KJV, I must say I haven't done anything very 
> focused in that regard.  It's an interesting idea, though.  I do try 
> to read TO the students as much as possible, because I do think they 
> need to hear the language, which is so powerful in this translation 
> (and was so much a phenomenon of the ear to so many English writers).  
> As for their own reading, well, they are generally no better at 
> reading the KJV than they are at reading Shakespeare -- i.e., not 
> terribly good.  But that's probably all the more reason to get them to 
> do it.  This connects to the much larger matter of the cultural shift 
> from ear to eye that all of us must tackle when teaching early modern 
> lit.  I re member being quite intrigued recently, hearing that Peter 
> McCullough had performed some of Lancelot Andrewes's sermons in London 
> churches.  this seems a brilliant idea, and I'd love to have heard 
> them, but wouldn't it be valuable to expand the performance into 
> something like an "authentic" Elizabethan or Jacobean church service?  
> The early music movement has been doing things like this for decades 
> (the various masses recorded by Paul McCreesh for instance), and one 
> can now see wonderful authentic performances of Shakespeare at the New 
> Globe.  I suppose enacting a "performance" of a worship service raises 
> questions for believers about whether such a performance is tasteful 
> or ethical (does it constitute worship in itself, for instance, and 
> would clergy feel comfortable having such an event in their 
> churches?), but if done in the right spirit I think it could overcome 
> such qualms.  An interesting prospect anyway!
>
> Hannibal Hamlin
> Associate Professor of English
> The Ohio State University
> Book Review Editor and Associate Editor, Reformation
>
> Mailing Address (2007-2009):
>
> The Folger Shakespeare Library
> 201 Capitol Street SE
> Washington, DC 20003
>
> Permanent Address:
>
> Department of English
> The Ohio State University
> 421 Denney Hall, 164 W. 17th Avenue
> Columbus, OH 43210-1340
>
> *----- Original Message -----* *From*: carl bellinger 
> <bcarlb at comcast.net> *Date*: Friday, September 14, 2007 3:16 pm 
> *Subject*: Re: [Milton-L] Re: AV/KJV > Failing the right kind local 
> church to visit, I'd also suggest,
> > Mr. Kerr,
> > you might try reading aloud when you come to the collects. In fact
> > memorize
> > 2 or 3 of them. I expect Milton is right when in Of Education he
> > makes
> > memorization followed by an out-loud recitation of what is "got by
> > heart"
> > the culminating requirement for a genuine appropriation not only
> > of the
> > words but of the "spirit and vigor" of the great texts.
> >
> > In this regard I have a question for Prof. Hamlin whose fine pitch
> > for using
> > the KJV gets me wondering how he recommends his students read when
> > they
> > read. The Bible you want is that which so deeply informs the Eng
> > lit., but
> > can the Bible as read by students [I assume most are not
> > practicing
> > Christians?] even vaguely approximate the Bible that lies behind
> > our
> > literature? Perhaps a sophomoric question, but I'm wondering,
> > Prof. Hamlin,
> > if you ask your students to in some way or other practice reading
> > the Bible
> > as "a believer" might do? What exactly that would look like I have
> > no idea.
> > Read every single morning without fail? and follow your reading
> > with set
> > prayers, perhaps a collect or two? Stand up when say the Collects?
> > Try to
> > imagine while reading you are sincerely seeking your daily light,
> > then go
> > through the day in hope of that light and trust for those prayers?
> > Or would
> > such fictions impede what you hope the students will gain?
> >
> > -Carl
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Michael Gillum" <mgillum at unca.edu>
> > To: "milton-l" <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
> > Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 11:30 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Re: AV/KJV
> >
> >
> > > Rite 1 (as opposed to Rite 2) services in American Episcopal
> > churches are
> > > close enough to the old Prayer Books to get the feel of it.
> > >
> > >
> > > On 9/14/07 10:59 AM, "gilliaca at jmu.edu" <gilliaca at jmu.edu> wrote:
> > >
> > >>
> > >>> Mr Kerr:
> > >>>
> > >>> Though it's not the same version, attending a
> > >>> traditional Anglican (in the US, 1928 BCP;
> > >>
> > >> The 1928 book in only used - or nearly only - in the many tiny
> > Anglican>> breakaway churches in the US that in fact are not in
> > communion with
> > >> Canterbury. You can probably find a listing of them if you
> > put a phrase
> > >> like
> > >> 'continuing Anglican' into Google. I have seen such a list but
> > forget
> > >> where.
> > >>
> > >> C
> > >> Cynthia A. Gilliatt
> > >> English Department, JMU
> > >> JMU Safe Zones participant
> > >> "You have made God in your own image when God hates the same
> > people you
> > >> hate."
> > >> Fr. John Weston
> > >> _______________________________________________
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