[Milton-L] death in Eden.

Salwa Khoddam skhoddam at cox.net
Mon Nov 22 09:18:05 EST 2004

Dear Peter, Carol, and everyone,
I have another question and a remark.  What is the difference between our 
actual world and the post-lapsarian world, admittedly the latter portrayed 
fictionally?  Doesn't fiction portray reality?  Milton thought so, because 
he wrote Books 10-12 to illustrate human history as a post-lapsarian world. 
Also, Peter, Death exists within the gates of Hell, not outside of them, 
certainly not in Eden before Satan entered it.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter C. Herman" <herman2 at mail.sdsu.edu>
To: "John Milton Discussion List" <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 8:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Milton-L] death in Eden.

> At 04:29 PM 11/21/2004, you wrote:
>>Dear Douglas,
>>There is no death in Eden yet.  In Satan, yes because he has fallen. 
>>Therefore, he sees death where no death exists yet.  Death exists in the 
>>warped mind of Satan [....]
> Is this exactly right? Satan does bump into Death (and Sin) on his way out 
> of hell. Arguably, death arose from Satan's mind: Sin literally pops out 
> of Satan's head, then they have sex, then Death is born, so in a very 
> weird way, Death is the idea of an idea. But Death certainly exists 
> outside of Satan's mind before he gets to Earth.
> Peter C. Herman
>>  and through the imagery that Milton uses of our postlapsarian world, we 
>> the readers.
>>Salwa Khoddam
>>Professor of English
>>Oklahoma City University
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglass A Bourne" <DA-Bourne at wiu.edu>
>>To: "Milton" <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
>>Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 4:39 PM
>>Subject: [Milton-L] death in Eden.
>>>I am a graduate student taking a Milton seminar.  Soon I must have a 
>>>thesis statement to present to the class.  I could use some guidance in a
>>>couple of areas.  I want to explore death in Eden.
>>>I am working with four images, three subtle and one blatant.  The three 
>>>images involve Satan:  "As when a prowling Wolf, / Whom hunger drives to 
>>>new haunt for prey" (IV 183,184).  "Sat like a Cormorant" (IV 196).  A
>>>Cormorant eats dead things.  "A Lion now he stalks with fiery glare, / 
>>>Then as
>>>a Tiger, who by chance hat spi'd / In some Purlieu two gentle Fawns at 
>>>play, /
>>>Straight couches close, then rising changes oft / His couchant watch, as 
>>>who chose his ground / Whence rushing he might surest seize them both / 
>>>in each paw" (IV 402-408).  Satan wants to kill the deer but gets 
>>>distracted by
>>>Adam and Eve.
>>>The blatant image is also from book four.  A lion has a kid in its
>>>paws.  "Sporting the Lion ramp'd, and in his paw / Dandl'd the Kid" 
>>>I checked the OED for definitions of the words out my (our) present usage 
>>>it does indeed sound like the lion has killed a kid.
>>>The problems that I am having are that I can't find scholarship on death 
>>>Eden.  I know there is a debate of something like; did nature fall before 
>>>Yet I can't find scholarship on the fall of nature.  Since Milton does 
>>>some images of death in Eden I would like to explore possibly what that 
>>>about the fall of nature.  Is death allowed in Eden for nature, without 
>>>falling?  If that is the case then Milton sets Adam and Eve clearly apart 
>>>nature.  Nature has death, yet Adam and Eve do not.  Plus the lions, 
>>>tigers and
>>>bears (oh my), don't think of Adam and Eve as food.
>>>I am sure that I am not blazing a new trail.  There must be some articles 
>>>least somewhat related to this idea.  But I am so frustrated with not 
>>>able to find articles I'm thinking of scraping the idea.  Is a paper on 
>>>idea feasible?  If so, are there some essays that I should read?
>>>I appreciate any and all guidance.
>>>Douglass Bourne
>>>Graduate Assistant
>>>Western Illinois University
>>>Milton-L mailing list
>>>Milton-L at lists.richmond.edu
>>Milton-L mailing list
>>Milton-L at lists.richmond.edu
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