[Milton-L] L'Allegro and Il Penseroso

Tue Mar 31 18:43:00 EDT 2009

Quoting "Chernaik, Warren" <warren.chernaik at kcl.ac.uk>:
The companion poems are not a ebate, but (as tillyard noted) something
like  University disputation, where opposue sides were taken, but NO
winner was declared. If modern "debating" has to end with a vote, then
Milton's should be called something else.
JKH

> Since I was at the excellent Young MIlton conference and gave a paper
> on this topic, I thought I might add to the list of those worrying over
> Milton's stance in the companion poems. Neville Davies and I were the
> two people at the conference who discussed "L'Allegro" and "Il
> Penseroso", and we split evenly in arguing one or the other position.
> In John Carey's long introductory note in the Longman edition, he
> points out that critics are divided on the question of whether Milton
> expresses or implies a preference for "Il Penseroso", listing a series
> of references for both views, with more critics endorsing Neville's
> position than mine, but a respectable, long line for both. My view is
> more or less that of Tillyard, long ago, that Milton, in the tradition
> of arguing in utrumque partes,  taking one or another side of a debate,
> presents two complementary views, without having one win out over the
> other. To quote a sentence from my essay at the conference: Milton is
> not expressing h!
>  is own preferences for contemplative melancholy over joy, so much as
> opposing two opposite and complementary perspectives, setting up a
> debate where neither participant can claim exclusive possession of
> truth. Harold Skulsky says in an interesting contribution to this
> discussion that a debate has to have a winner (or a vote of those
> listening), but that seems to me to define "debate" too narrowly. It's
> related to the idea of negative capability: a dramatist like
> Shakespeare will present opposite perspectives without overloading the
> scale on either side, and the same is true of paired poems--Marvell's
> Dialogue of the Soul and Body is another example of a poem in the form
> of a debate, where neither side can be said to come out a winner. Each
> one is valid from its own point of view, and Milton presents each case
> as effectively as he can.
> Warren Chernaik
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu
> [milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu] On Behalf Of srevard at siue.edu
> [srevard at siue.edu]
> Sent: 28 March 2009 14:55
> To: John Milton Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] L'Allegro and Il Penseroso
>
> At the recent Young Milton conference in Oxford Neville Davies
> gave a paper on this very issue and came down strongly with
> the view that Milton expects us to move on to Penseroso and
> that the conclusion to the second ode sounds more positive than
> that to the first.
> However, there was not a consensus in the audience and a lot
> of us defended Allegro and some even said we preferred it.
>
> Stella Revard
>
> Quoting gamefreak727 at gmail.com:
>
> > One piece of my evidence is, the conditional "if" at the end of
> "L'Allegro,"
> > it doesnt make it feel or seen to be as solid, there are
> possibilities. In
> > "Il Penseroso" there is no conditional, it just is i guess you could
> say. I
> > havent fully developed that yet of course... Another is, i dont know
> this
> > for fact, but i am guessing Milton did not drink or was against it
> since he
> > refers to Bacchus, the god of wine, a fallen angel in Paradise Lost.
> Since
> > mentioning and connecting mirth and L'Allegro with Bacchus, it gives
> me the
> > impression that he doesnt like L'Allegro for that reason. Lastly, in
> lines
> > 31-41, he connects melancholy, or Il Penseroso with the divine,
> praying,
> > Heaven. At first Milton wanted to become a anglican priest, so
> connecting
> > melancholy with God, gives the feeling of Milton siding, or agreeing
> with
> > melancholy/Il Penseroso.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Schwartz, Louis" <lschwart at richmond.edu>
> > To: "'John Milton Discussion List'" <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 9:04 AM
> > Subject: RE: [Milton-L] L'Allegro and Il Penseroso
> >
> >
> > > An even more important question, from my perspective, would be why
> you
> > > assume he'd take sides at all.  What, if anything, in the poems
> suggests
> > > that the debate is in any sense clearly decidable?
> > >
> > > Louis
> > >
> > > ===========================
> > > Louis Schwartz
> > > Associate Professor of English
> > > University of Richmond
> > > Richmond, VA  23173
> > > (804) 289-8315
> > > lschwart at richmond.edu
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu
> > > [mailto:milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu] On Behalf Of James
> Rovira
> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 10:26 AM
> > > To: John Milton Discussion List
> > > Subject: Re: [Milton-L] L'Allegro and Il Penseroso
> > >
> > > More important than the answer is how you come to it.  Why do you
> > > think Milton would be on the side of Il Penseroso?  Can you list
> the
> > > reasons?
> > >
> > > Jim R
> > >
> > > 2009/3/24  <gamefreak727 at gmail.com>:
> > >> Hey, i am just a high school student writing about John Milton's
> poem's
> > >> "L'Allegro" and "Il Penseroso." My prompt i made for my senior
> project
> > >> was,
> > >> If the two poems above were considered a debate, an argument, or
> two
> > >> sides
> > >> of an issue or debate, or two people, which side or person would
> Milton
> > >> most
> > >> prefer or like? My answer was "Il Penseroso." Would any of you
> agree with
> > >> me?
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