[Milton-L] L'Allegro and Il Penseroso

Wed Mar 25 14:35:55 EDT 2009

Yes, it suggests comparison, but that doesn't mean you'll find what you need to make a decision about which is better, at least not absolutely.  Better for what and better when, might get you somewhere, but that's not the same absolute somewhere, and there no place even for that in the poem (you need to step outside of it for that).  The structure of the paired set is circular, not linear (nor does it have a middle figure as in the Handel), and it's a poem, not a debate or debate exercise.  It offers something that would normally be impossible to obtain:  access to two absolute and in effect intolerant points of view, two opposed states of mind and emotion.  When you're in one of these states, or see the world from one of these points of view, the other state or point of view doesn't have less value, it has no value.  But then you leap over to the other side.  And back.  Total, cyclical immersion.

Louis

===========================
Louis Schwartz
Associate Professor of English
University of Richmond
Richmond, VA  23173
(804) 289-8315
lschwart at richmond.edu<mailto:lschwart at richmond.edu>

________________________________
From: milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu [mailto:milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu] On Behalf Of Hannibal Hamlin
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 1:54 PM
To: John Milton Discussion List
Subject: Re: [Milton-L] L'Allegro and Il Penseroso

I understand the point that we needn't necessarily decide, and the fact that the poems always appear in tandem (and, when set by Handel, with Il Moderato as well) supports this. At the same time, the point of any debate, surely, is in fact to decide a question. Debating exercises, like this one, or at least the college practice these poems may be based on, do require students to take both sides. But this is not because the questions are unanswerable, rather because in order to answer them one must be able to pursue arguments on both sides as fully as possible. We could debate this of course -- :) -- but doesn't the presentation of these two poems side by side demand of the reader a comparison of the arguments and at least some assessment of their relative merits?

Hannibal

On 3/25/09, Tony Demarest <tonydemarest at hotmail.com<mailto:tonydemarest at hotmail.com>> wrote:
I agree that we see two sides of Milton the poet and man struggling for poetic identity; and I think we see both sides reconciled in Lycidas- but I teach Milton every other year and this is my off-year. I tend to forget much in the interval.

Tony

> From: lschwart at richmond.edu<mailto:lschwart at richmond.edu>
> To: milton-l at lists.richmond.edu<mailto:milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
> Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 12:04:57 -0400
> Subject: RE: [Milton-L] L'Allegro and Il Penseroso
>
> An even more important question, from my perspective, would be why you assume he'd take sides at all. What, if anything, in the poems suggests that the debate is in any sense clearly decidable?
>
> Louis
>
> ===========================
> Louis Schwartz
> Associate Professor of English
> University of Richmond
> Richmond, VA 23173
> (804) 289-8315
> lschwart at richmond.edu<mailto:lschwart at richmond.edu>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu<mailto:milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu> [mailto:milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu<mailto:milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu>] On Behalf Of James Rovira
> Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 10:26 AM
> To: John Milton Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] L'Allegro and Il Penseroso
>
> More important than the answer is how you come to it. Why do you
> think Milton would be on the side of Il Penseroso? Can you list the
> reasons?
>
> Jim R
>
> 2009/3/24 <gamefreak727 at gmail.com<mailto:gamefreak727 at gmail.com>>:
>> Hey, i am just a high school student writing about John Milton's poem's
>> "L'Allegro" and "Il Penseroso." My prompt i made for my senior project was,
>> If the two poems above were considered a debate, an argument, or two sides
>> of an issue or debate, or two people, which side or person would Milton most
>> prefer or like? My answer was "Il Penseroso." Would any of you agree with
>> me?
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--
Hannibal Hamlin
Associate Professor of English
The Ohio State University
Burkhardt Fellow,
The Folger Shakespeare Library
201 East Capitol Street SE
Washington, DC 20003
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