[POSSIBLE SPAM] RE: [Milton-L] Milton and Gardens: queries on JM'saesthetics

Sat Jun 20 13:30:29 EDT 2009

Thanks all for your replies!

Where can I look for more on Hebrew, Biblical aesthetics, and on Milton's 
claims that the origins of right and true and pure artistic forms may only 
be found --in their unpolluted/uncompromised form-- in Scriptural tradtion? 
I remain puzzled by apparently settled aesthetic opinion installed in 
"...not nice art, in beds and curious knots" and its cousin "wilde above 
rule or art, enormous bliss;" I wondering if this stiff bias *against* 
crabby, over-precious, artifice on one hand, and *pro* some kind of 
delirious (Romantic?) ART on the other has any bona fide foundation in 
Scripture. And puzzled by enthusiasms that Orpheus is the Greek David, or 
David the Hebrew Homer, etc. etc. which (if I recall without too much 
distortion some of Stella Revard's considerations --particularly on Pindar--  
and some of Hannibal Hamlin's on Psalm Culture) did not much fade over 
roughly two centuries [is it?] from the time of  Ficino and his rout to that 
of Cowley and Milton.

Carl

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <srevard at siue.edu>
To: "John Milton Discussion List" <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>; "Schwartz, 
Louis" <lschwart at richmond.edu>
Cc: "'John Milton Discussion List'" <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 9:30 AM
Subject: [POSSIBLE SPAM] RE: [Milton-L] Milton and Gardens: queries on 
JM'saesthetics

> It would be worth checking both Abraham Cowley and John
> Evelyn on gardens for further contemporary views.
>
> Stella Revard
>
> Quoting "Schwartz, Louis" <lschwart at richmond.edu>:
>
>> Thank you to everyone for the suggestions about landscapes and gardens! 
>> I'll
>> pass the recommendations along, and I'm sure he'll find them useful.
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Louis
>>
>> ===========================
>> Louis Schwartz
>> Associate Professor of English
>> University of Richmond
>> Richmond, VA  23173
>> (804) 289-8315
>> lschwart at richmond.edu<mailto:lschwart at richmond.edu>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu
>> [mailto:milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu] On Behalf Of Michael Gillum
>> Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 2:14 PM
>> To: milton-l
>> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Milton and Gardens: queries on JM's aesthetics
>>
>> Carl,
>>
>> I make a few observations about the bower in a short article about roses 
>> in
>> PL (ANQ, Winter 2007).
>>
>> The obvious pertinence of "wrought mosaic" is that the design of flowers
>> covers the interior wall of the bower just as a fresco or mosaic would
>> decorate a man-made structure. Similarly, the floor is a "rich inlay" of
>> flowers (4.701). However, I'd think the overtones of fussy artifice that 
>> you
>> correctly detect are somewhat ironic. Like the design of the whole garden 
>> and
>> God's art in general, the mosaic and inlay would have been "not nice," 
>> but
>> rich, abundant, and informal in structure.
>>
>> The bower is emphatically an enclosure within the larger enclosure of the
>> Garden. The roof is "of thickest covert," shrubs "fenced up the verdant
>> wall," it is "sacred and sequestered," "in close recess" (4. 690-710). 
>> The
>> language obviously echoes the description of Satan's approach to the 
>> Garden
>> (4. 130-145). The bower guards the secret/sacred quality of A&E's sexual
>> relation while enhancing that relation aesthetically with falling rose
>> petals, etc. As a focal structure within the larger focal structure of 
>> the
>> Garden's enclosure, perhaps it suggests that the sexual relation is 
>> somehow
>> central to the whole project.
>>
>> As to why the whole Garden needs to be fenced off from the rest of the 
>> world,
>> that's an interesting question.
>>
>> Michael
>>
>>
>> On 6/18/09 2:49 PM, "Carl Bellinger" <bcarlb at comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> > [[ sorry for previous empty email. ]]
>> >
>> > 1) In PL the gardens designed and planted by God the "sovran Planter" 
>> > are
>> > "sacred & sequestered," "enclosed," "covert," "walled," fenced," and so
>> > forth. Is this an identifiably Hebrew ideal --beyond the obvious fact 
>> > that
>> > Adam&Eve were thrown out of a place which at that point, necessarily,
>> became
>> > a place sequestered from them-- or simply a Classical one?
>> >
>> > 2) At PL 4.700 God's patterned design (alternating patches of Iris & 
>> > Roses
>> &
>> > Gessimin) has "wrought Mosaic."
>> >
>> >         What's the skinny on "mosaic?" As an aesthetic ideal of 
>> > artificial
>> > design is it associated essentially with Classical, or Roman (& ??
>> > Renaissance) culture, or could Milton have located its origins in 
>> > Hebrew
>> > scriptures? In asking this I have in mind how crucial it seems to 
>> > Milton
>> > that he assert that the sources of song aesthetics and rhetorical 
>> > eloquence
>> > are in the Hebrew tradition and are merely  "ill imitated" in Classical
>> > culture.
>> >
>> > 3)   Do Puritan lights of Milton's period sport an identifiable 
>> > aesthetic
>> of
>> > some ilk? If so, did they acknowledge it?
>> >
>> > Carl
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "JD Fleming" <jfleming at sfu.ca>
>> > To: "John Milton Discussion List" <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
>> > Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 11:09 AM
>> > Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Milton and Gardens
>> >
>> >
>> >> Louis, my article "Meanwhile, Medusa" (in ELH some years ago) has a 
>> >> bunch
>> >> of stuff on gardens and garden theory in it, including references. (I
>> >> guess this offers yet another pun on "plug.") yrs, JD Fleming
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Hannibal Hamlin" <hamlin.hannibal at gmail.com>
>> >> To: "John Milton Discussion List" <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
>> >> Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 7:59:09 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
>> >> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Milton and Gardens
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> You might also want to think about this topic by way of Genesis 1-3, 
>> >> which
>> >> was of course a preoccupation of Milton's, but which also greatly
>> >> influenced thinking on gardens and horticulture. There is an armful 
>> >> (at
>> >> least) of books on Milton and Genesis. On gardens in particular, which 
>> >> I
>> >> happen to have been reading about recently, see Terry Comito's The 
>> >> Idea of
>> >> the Garden in the Renaissance , and Rebecca Bushnell's Green Desire:
>> >> Imagining Early Modern English Gardens . These are about earlier 
>> >> gardens,
>> >> of course, but would be useful on where Milton is coming from (rather 
>> >> than
>> >> where others are taking him). James Turner's The Politics of Landscape 
>> >> is
>> >> also important.
>> >>
>> >> Hannibal
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 10:44 AM, Joshua Scodel < jscodel at uchicago.edu 
>> >>  >
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Dear Louis,
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I think John Dixon Hunt is your man: lots of books and articles on the
>> >> 18th-century landscape gardening, including one in Milton Studies
>> >> specifically on Milton's influence.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Best,
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Josh
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Jun 18, 2009, at 9:32 AM, Schwartz, Louis wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> To the list:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I have a colleague over in the Philosophy Dept. who is doing some work 
>> >> on
>> >> the aesthetics of the landscape, and as you can imagine has been 
>> >> coming
>> >> across many references to Milton, especially in respect to the 18 th
>> >> Century. Since I haven't done much thinking or work on the subject, I 
>> >> was
>> >> hoping the list might offer some suggestions about what to read on 
>> >> Milton
>> >> and the development of landscape painting and gardening or landscaping 
>> >> in
>> >> the 18 th Century and after.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Thanks in advance!
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Louis
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ===========================
>> >>
>> >> Louis Schwartz
>> >>
>> >> Associate Professor of English
>> >>
>> >> University of Richmond
>> >>
>> >> Richmond, VA 23173
>> >>
>> >> (804) 289-8315
>> >>
>> >> lschwart at richmond.edu
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
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>> >> Milton-L web site: http://johnmilton.org/
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Joshua Scodel
>> >> Chair, Department of Comparative Literature
>> >> Helen A. Regenstein Professor in Comparative Literature, English, and 
>> >> the
>> >> College
>> >> Resident Master, Burton-Judson Courts
>> >> University of Chicago
>> >> office: Classics 402
>> >> phone: 773-702-5101
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
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>> >> Milton-L web site: http://johnmilton.org/
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Hannibal Hamlin
>> >> Associate Professor of English
>> >> The Ohio State University
>> >> 164 West 17th Ave., 421 Denney Hall
>> >> Columbus, OH 43210-1340
>> >> hamlin.22 at osu.edu/
>> >> hamlin.hannibal at gmail.com
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
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>> >> Milton-L web site: http://johnmilton.org/
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> James Dougal Fleming
>> >> Associate Professor
>> >> Department of English
>> >> Simon Fraser University
>> >>
>> >> "das Fragwuerdige zu sehen"
>> >>
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>
>
>
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