[Milton-L] another version of Adam and Eve
Hannibal Hamlin
hamlin.hannibal at gmail.com
Tue Jun 16 16:33:01 EDT 2009
I'm hardly an expert on angels, but I think that despite the implications of
the Hebrew descriptions of Cherubim, which some of the learned may have
understood (and a browse through many biblical references suggests they were
usually animal-like), there was also a longstanding tradition of
representing or thinking of Cherubim as a rank of angels -- and humanoid.
The OED is pretty good on "cherub," and indicates (disappointingly) that the
sense as chubby little naked infant angel is post-Milton.
On 6/16/09, stallard at ohio.edu <stallard at ohio.edu> wrote:
>
>
> Cool. Alter's cherubim depiction makes sense to me on many levels. For
> example,
> the cherubim of Ezekiel are at times essentially beasts of burden.
>
> "Then did the Cherubim lift up their wings, and the wheels besides them,
> and the
> glory of the God of Israel was upon them on high" (Ezekiel 11.22, 1560
> Geneva).
> Bishop's Bible and the Great Bible also use the "upon them" rendering
> whereas
> the Authorized Version and Douay-Rheims use "was over them."
>
> The Geneva Psalms declare of God, "And he rode upon Cherub and did fly, and
> he
> came flying upon the wings of the wind" (Ps 18.10). Hard to visualize God
> riding
> upon an anthropomorphized angel, or is Milton's humor at work here? The
> Canaanite beast seems a better fit.
>
> Then there is Satan's claim in PL:
>
> Then when I am thy captive talk of chains,
> Proud limitary Cherub! but ere then
> Far heavier load thyself expect to feel
> >From my prevailing arm, though Heaven's King
> Ride on thy wings, and with thy compeers,
> Used to the yoke, draw'st his triumphant wheels
> In progress through the road of Heaven star-paved.(4.970-76)
>
> Does it seem that Milton also saw the Cherubim as "non-humanoid," to use
> your
> Trekker phrase? Perhaps, Milton is inconsistent in this regard.
>
> Best,
> Matthew
>
> _______________________________
> Matthew Stallard, Ph.D.
> Ohio University
> Department of English
> 305 Ellis Hall
> Athens, OH 45701
> stallard at ohio.edu
>
>
>
>
>
> > --001636c5b526f1321a046bae60e2
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >
> > Matthew,
> >
> > I'm open to correction, and I certainly did not check Crumb's text
> > against
> > all available English translations. Even on a more cursory scan,
> > however, it
> > does seem too close to Alter for coincidence. The only significant
> > alteration I noticed was the translation of "tohu wabohu," which
> > Alter
> > strikingly renders as "welter and waste," but which Crumb doesn't.
> > Even if
> > it is someone else's translation, however, it is still uncredited
> > (I'm sure
> > Crumb didn't make his own). As for the cherubim, Alter's note makes
> > clear
> > that these creatures, which have more ancient Canaanite roots, are
> > non-human
> > beasts who do not themselves hold the sword of fire that also guards
> > the
> > gate. Since this is precisely what Crumb depicts, and since every
> > other
> > image of the guarding cherubim I have seen has them, in human-angel
> > form,
> > holding the sword, I assume Crumb got his interpretation from Alter.
> >
> > All this seems fine to me; I'm only puzzled at the lack of credit to
> > Alter.
> >
> > Hannibal
> >
> >
> >
> > On 6/5/09, Matthew Stallard <stallard at ohio.edu> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hannibal,
> > >
> > > How can you be sure it is Alter's translation if it is "slightly
> > altered"?
> > > There are, after all, a number of modern English translations. It
> > might be
> > > hard to consult all of them. Also, what is so special about the
> > depiction of
> > > the cherubim that points exclusively and "obviously" to Alter's
> > note as a
> > > source?
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Matthew
> > >
> > > ____________________________
> > > Matthew Stallard, Ph.D.
> > > Ohio University
> > > Department of English
> > > 305 Ellis Hall
> > > Athens, OH 45701
> > > stallard at ohio.edu
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --On Friday, June 05, 2009 2:14 PM -0400 Hannibal Hamlin <
> > > hamlin.hannibal at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >> I caught Crumb's bit in The New Yorker too, and am interested to
> > see the
> > >> whole. One thing that puzzled me about his drawing of Gen. 1-3 is
> > how
> > >> relatively uninterpreted it is, especially surprising from this
> > icon of
> > >> the counter-culture. There are a few interpreted things one can
> > point to
> > >> -- it seems Adam and Eve do have sex in Eden (or at least
> > wrestle), the
> > >> serpent has arms and legs, and the cherubim are definitely
> > non-humanoid
> > >> (to borrow a term from sci-fi) -- but Crumb seems to be offering a
> > fairly
> > >> straightforward illustrated Bible rather than anything along the
> > lines of
> > >> Paradise Lost. Crumb also seems to be using the translation of
> > Robert
> > >> Alter (slightly altered), though there is no credit given, which
> > seemed
> > >> odd. As my wife pointed out, the representation of the cherubim
> > obviously
> > >> derives from Alter's scholarly note, which makes the lack of
> > credit
> > >> especially troublesome. Maybe the error is the New Yorker's.
> > >> Hannibal
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 2:02 PM, <gilliaca at jmu.edu> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> I come again with something aslant our topic.
> > >>
> > >> When I taught the undergraduate Milton course, I would, early in
> > our
> > >> reading of PL, bring to class paintings and other illustrations of
> > the
> > >> fall, to show how artists have interpreted the narrative. If I
> > were
> > >> still teaching, I would be making copies of something quite
> > interesting
> > >> in the lastest [June 8 and 15] New Yorker.
> > >>
> > >> In the midst of its annual fiction issue is an illustrated version
> > of the
> > >> two creation stories from Genesis - by the cartoonist B. Crumb.
> > >>
> > >> His muscular and solid Adam and Eve certainly fit the narrative.
> > He will
> > >> publish an illustrated Genesis in the fall, and I hope to get a
> > copy.
> > >>
> > >> Meanwhile, enjoy this unexpected treat. I hope all of you are
> > enjoying a
> > >> summer of resortation!
> > >>
> > >> C
> > >> Cynthia A. Gilliatt
> > >> English Department, JMU, ret.
> > >> JMU Safe Zones supporter
> > >> "You have made God in your own image when God hates the same
> > people you
> > >> hate." Fr. John Weston
> > _______________________________________________
> > >> Milton-L mailing list
> > >> Milton-L at lists.richmond.edu
> > >> Manage your list membership and access list archives at
> > >> http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l
> > >>
> > >> Milton-L web site: http://johnmilton.org/
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Hannibal Hamlin
> > >> Associate Professor of English
> > >> The Ohio State University
> > >> Burkhardt Fellow,
> > >> The Folger Shakespeare Library
> > >> 201 East Capitol Street SE
> > >> Washington, DC 20003
> > >> hamlin.22 at osu.edu/
> > >> hamlin.hannibal at gmail.com
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Milton-L mailing list
> > > Milton-L at lists.richmond.edu
> > > Manage your list membership and access list archives at
> > > http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l
> > >
> > > Milton-L web site: http://johnmilton.org/
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Hannibal Hamlin
> > Associate Professor of English
> > The Ohio State University
> > Burkhardt Fellow,
> > The Folger Shakespeare Library
> > 201 East Capitol Street SE
> > Washington, DC 20003
> > hamlin.22 at osu.edu/
> > hamlin.hannibal at gmail.com
> >
> > --001636c5b526f1321a046bae60e2
> > Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >
> > <div>Matthew,</div>
> > <div>=A0</div>
> > <div>I'm open to correction, and I certainly did not check
> > Crumb's =
> > text against all available English translations. Even on a more
> > cursory sca=
> > n, however, it does seem too close to Alter for coincidence. The only
> > signi=
> > ficant alteration I noticed was the translation of "tohu
> > wabohu,"=
> > which Alter strikingly renders as "welter and waste," but
> > which =
> > Crumb doesn't.=A0Even if it is someone else's translation,
> > however,=
> > it is still uncredited (I'm sure Crumb didn't make his own).
> > As fo=
> > r the cherubim, Alter's note makes clear that these creatures,
> > which ha=
> > ve more ancient Canaanite roots, are non-human beasts who do not
> > themselves=
> > hold the sword of fire that also guards the gate. Since this is
> > precisely =
> > what Crumb depicts, and since every other image of the guarding
> > cherubim I =
> > have seen has them, in human-angel form, holding the sword, I assume
> > Crumb =
> > got his interpretation from Alter.</div>
> >
> > <div>=A0</div>
> > <div>All this seems fine to me; I'm only puzzled at the lack of
> > credit =
> > to Alter.</div>
> > <div>=A0</div>
> > <div>Hannibal</div>
> > <div><br><br>=A0</div>
> > <div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 6/5/09, <b
> > class=3D"gmail_sendername">M=
> > atthew Stallard</b> <<a
> > href=3D"mailto:stallard at ohio.edu">stallard at ohio.=
> > edu</a>> wrote:</span>
> > <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
> > 0px 0=
> > px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Hannibal,<br><br>How can
> > you be =
> > sure it is Alter's translation if it is "slightly
> > altered"? T=
> > here are, after all, a number of modern English translations. It
> > might be h=
> > ard to consult all of them. Also, what is so special about the
> > depiction of=
> > the cherubim that points exclusively and "obviously" to
> > Alter=
> > 9;s note as a source?<br>
> > <br>Best,<br>Matthew<br><br>____________________________<br><span
> > class=3D"=
> > sg">Matthew Stallard, Ph.D.<br>Ohio University<br>Department of
> > English<br>=
> > 305 Ellis Hall<br>Athens, OH 45701<br><a onclick=3D"return
> > top.js.OpenExtLi=
> > nk(window,event,this)" href=3D"mailto:stallard at ohio.edu"
> > target=3D"_blank">=
> > stallard at ohio.edu</a></span>=20
> > <div><span class=3D"e"
> > id=3D"q_121b3100ea991b8a_2"><br><br><br><br>--On Fri=
> > day, June 05, 2009 2:14 PM -0400 Hannibal Hamlin <<a
> > onclick=3D"return t=
> > op.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
> > href=3D"mailto:hamlin.hannibal at gmail.=
> > com" target=3D"_blank">hamlin.hannibal at gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> > <br>
> > <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
> > 0px 0=
> > px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid"><br>I caught Crumb's
> > bit in =
> > The New Yorker too, and am interested to see the<br>whole. One thing
> > that p=
> > uzzled me about his drawing of Gen. 1-3 is how<br>
> > relatively uninterpreted it is, especially surprising from this icon
> > of<br>=
> > the counter-culture. There are a few interpreted things one can point
> > to<br=
> > >-- it seems Adam and Eve do have sex in Eden (or at least wrestle),
> > the<br=
> > >
> > serpent has arms and legs, and the cherubim are definitely
> > non-humanoid<br>=
> > (to borrow a term from sci-fi) -- but Crumb seems to be offering a
> > fairly<b=
> > r>straightforward illustrated Bible rather than anything along the
> > lines of=
> > <br>
> > Paradise Lost. Crumb also seems to be using the translation of
> > Robert<br>Al=
> > ter (slightly altered), though there is no credit given, which
> > seemed<br>od=
> > d. As my wife pointed out, the representation of the cherubim
> > obviously<br>
> > derives from Alter's scholarly note, which makes the lack of
> > credit<br>=
> > especially troublesome. Maybe the error is the New Yorker's.
> > =A0=A0<br>=
> > Hannibal<br>=A0<br><br><br>=A0<br>On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 2:02 PM,
> > <<a on=
> > click=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
> > href=3D"mailto:gilli=
> > aca at jmu.edu" target=3D"_blank">gilliaca at jmu.edu</a>> wrote:<br>
> > <br>I come again with something aslant our topic.<br><br>When I
> > taught the =
> > undergraduate Milton course, I would, early in our<br>reading of PL,
> > bring =
> > to class paintings and other illustrations of the<br>fall, to show
> > how arti=
> > sts have interpreted the narrative. =A0If I were<br>
> > still teaching, I would be making copies of something quite
> > interesting<br>=
> > in the lastest [June 8 and 15] New Yorker.<br><br>In the midst of its
> > annua=
> > l fiction issue is an illustrated version of the<br>two creation
> > stories fr=
> > om Genesis - by the cartoonist B. Crumb.<br>
> > <br>His muscular and solid Adam and Eve certainly fit the narrative.
> > =A0He =
> > will<br>publish an illustrated Genesis in the fall, and I hope to get
> > a cop=
> > y.<br><br>Meanwhile, enjoy this unexpected treat. I hope all of you
> > are enj=
> > oying a<br>
> > summer of resortation!<br><br>C<br>Cynthia A. Gilliatt<br>English
> > Departmen=
> > t, JMU, ret.<br>JMU Safe Zones supporter<br>"You have made God
> > in your=
> > own image when God hates the same people you<br>hate." Fr. John
> > Westo=
> > n _______________________________________________<br>
> > Milton-L mailing list<br><a onclick=3D"return
> > top.js.OpenExtLink(window,eve=
> > nt,this)" href=3D"mailto:Milton-L at lists.richmond.edu"
> > target=3D"_blank">Mil=
> > ton-L at lists.richmond.edu</a><br>Manage your list membership and
> > access list=
> > archives at<br>
> > <a onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
> > href=3D"http://=
> > lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l"
> > target=3D"_blank">http://list=
> > s.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l</a><br><br>Milton-L web
> > site: <a o=
> > nclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
> > href=3D"http://john=
> > milton.org/" target=3D"_blank">http://johnmilton.org/</a><br>
> > <br><br><br><br><br>--<br>Hannibal Hamlin<br>Associate Professor of
> > English=
> > <br>The Ohio State University<br>Burkhardt Fellow,<br>The Folger
> > Shakespear=
> > e Library<br>201 East Capitol Street SE<br>Washington, DC 20003<br><a
> > oncli=
> > ck=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
> > href=3D"http://hamlin.2=
> > 2 at osu.edu/" target=3D"_blank">hamlin.22 at osu.edu/</a><br>
> > <a onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
> > href=3D"mailto:=
> > hamlin.hannibal at gmail.com"
> > target=3D"_blank">hamlin.hannibal at gmail.com</a><=
> >
> br></blockquote><br><br><br><br><br>_______________________________________=
> > ________<br>
> > Milton-L mailing list<br><a onclick=3D"return
> > top.js.OpenExtLink(window,eve=
> > nt,this)" href=3D"mailto:Milton-L at lists.richmond.edu"
> > target=3D"_blank">Mil=
> > ton-L at lists.richmond.edu</a><br>Manage your list membership and
> > access list=
> > archives at <a onclick=3D"return
> > top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" hr=
> > ef=3D"http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l"
> > target=3D"_blank=
> > ">http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l</a><br>
> > <br>Milton-L web site: <a onclick=3D"return
> > top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event=
> > ,this)" href=3D"http://johnmilton.org/"
> > target=3D"_blank">http://johnmilton=
> > .org/</a><br></span></div></blockquote></div><br><br
> > clear=3D"all"><br>-- <=
> > br>Hannibal Hamlin<br>
> > Associate Professor of English<br>The Ohio State
> > University<br>Burkhardt Fe=
> > llow, <br>The Folger Shakespeare Library<br>201 East Capitol Street
> > SE<br>W=
> > ashington, DC 20003<br><a
> > href=3D"http://hamlin.22@osu.edu/">hamlin.22 at osu.=
> > edu/</a><br>
> > <a
> > href=3D"mailto:hamlin.hannibal at gmail.com">hamlin.hannibal at gmail.com</a>=
> > =20
> >
> > --001636c5b526f1321a046bae60e2--
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Milton-L mailing list
> Milton-L at lists.richmond.edu
> Manage your list membership and access list archives at
> http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l
>
> Milton-L web site: http://johnmilton.org/
>
--
Hannibal Hamlin
Associate Professor of English
The Ohio State University
Burkhardt Fellow,
The Folger Shakespeare Library
201 East Capitol Street SE
Washington, DC 20003
hamlin.22 at osu.edu/
hamlin.hannibal at gmail.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.richmond.edu/pipermail/milton-l/attachments/20090616/b1094aaa/attachment-0001.html
More information about the Milton-L
mailing list