[Milton-L] another version of Adam and Eve
stallard at ohio.edu
stallard at ohio.edu
Tue Jun 16 10:00:12 EDT 2009
Cool. Alter's cherubim depiction makes sense to me on many levels. For example,
the cherubim of Ezekiel are at times essentially beasts of burden.
"Then did the Cherubim lift up their wings, and the wheels besides them, and the
glory of the God of Israel was upon them on high" (Ezekiel 11.22, 1560 Geneva).
Bishop's Bible and the Great Bible also use the "upon them" rendering whereas
the Authorized Version and Douay-Rheims use "was over them."
The Geneva Psalms declare of God, "And he rode upon Cherub and did fly, and he
came flying upon the wings of the wind" (Ps 18.10). Hard to visualize God riding
upon an anthropomorphized angel, or is Milton's humor at work here? The
Canaanite beast seems a better fit.
Then there is Satan's claim in PL:
Then when I am thy captive talk of chains,
Proud limitary Cherub! but ere then
Far heavier load thyself expect to feel
>From my prevailing arm, though Heaven's King
Ride on thy wings, and with thy compeers,
Used to the yoke, draw'st his triumphant wheels
In progress through the road of Heaven star-paved.(4.970-76)
Does it seem that Milton also saw the Cherubim as "non-humanoid," to use your
Trekker phrase? Perhaps, Milton is inconsistent in this regard.
Best,
Matthew
_______________________________
Matthew Stallard, Ph.D.
Ohio University
Department of English
305 Ellis Hall
Athens, OH 45701
stallard at ohio.edu
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> Matthew,
>
> I'm open to correction, and I certainly did not check Crumb's text
> against
> all available English translations. Even on a more cursory scan,
> however, it
> does seem too close to Alter for coincidence. The only significant
> alteration I noticed was the translation of "tohu wabohu," which
> Alter
> strikingly renders as "welter and waste," but which Crumb doesn't.
> Even if
> it is someone else's translation, however, it is still uncredited
> (I'm sure
> Crumb didn't make his own). As for the cherubim, Alter's note makes
> clear
> that these creatures, which have more ancient Canaanite roots, are
> non-human
> beasts who do not themselves hold the sword of fire that also guards
> the
> gate. Since this is precisely what Crumb depicts, and since every
> other
> image of the guarding cherubim I have seen has them, in human-angel
> form,
> holding the sword, I assume Crumb got his interpretation from Alter.
>
> All this seems fine to me; I'm only puzzled at the lack of credit to
> Alter.
>
> Hannibal
>
>
>
> On 6/5/09, Matthew Stallard <stallard at ohio.edu> wrote:
> >
> > Hannibal,
> >
> > How can you be sure it is Alter's translation if it is "slightly
> altered"?
> > There are, after all, a number of modern English translations. It
> might be
> > hard to consult all of them. Also, what is so special about the
> depiction of
> > the cherubim that points exclusively and "obviously" to Alter's
> note as a
> > source?
> >
> > Best,
> > Matthew
> >
> > ____________________________
> > Matthew Stallard, Ph.D.
> > Ohio University
> > Department of English
> > 305 Ellis Hall
> > Athens, OH 45701
> > stallard at ohio.edu
> >
> >
> >
> > --On Friday, June 05, 2009 2:14 PM -0400 Hannibal Hamlin <
> > hamlin.hannibal at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> I caught Crumb's bit in The New Yorker too, and am interested to
> see the
> >> whole. One thing that puzzled me about his drawing of Gen. 1-3 is
> how
> >> relatively uninterpreted it is, especially surprising from this
> icon of
> >> the counter-culture. There are a few interpreted things one can
> point to
> >> -- it seems Adam and Eve do have sex in Eden (or at least
> wrestle), the
> >> serpent has arms and legs, and the cherubim are definitely
> non-humanoid
> >> (to borrow a term from sci-fi) -- but Crumb seems to be offering a
> fairly
> >> straightforward illustrated Bible rather than anything along the
> lines of
> >> Paradise Lost. Crumb also seems to be using the translation of
> Robert
> >> Alter (slightly altered), though there is no credit given, which
> seemed
> >> odd. As my wife pointed out, the representation of the cherubim
> obviously
> >> derives from Alter's scholarly note, which makes the lack of
> credit
> >> especially troublesome. Maybe the error is the New Yorker's.
> >> Hannibal
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 2:02 PM, <gilliaca at jmu.edu> wrote:
> >>
> >> I come again with something aslant our topic.
> >>
> >> When I taught the undergraduate Milton course, I would, early in
> our
> >> reading of PL, bring to class paintings and other illustrations of
> the
> >> fall, to show how artists have interpreted the narrative. If I
> were
> >> still teaching, I would be making copies of something quite
> interesting
> >> in the lastest [June 8 and 15] New Yorker.
> >>
> >> In the midst of its annual fiction issue is an illustrated version
> of the
> >> two creation stories from Genesis - by the cartoonist B. Crumb.
> >>
> >> His muscular and solid Adam and Eve certainly fit the narrative.
> He will
> >> publish an illustrated Genesis in the fall, and I hope to get a
> copy.
> >>
> >> Meanwhile, enjoy this unexpected treat. I hope all of you are
> enjoying a
> >> summer of resortation!
> >>
> >> C
> >> Cynthia A. Gilliatt
> >> English Department, JMU, ret.
> >> JMU Safe Zones supporter
> >> "You have made God in your own image when God hates the same
> people you
> >> hate." Fr. John Weston
> _______________________________________________
> >> Milton-L mailing list
> >> Milton-L at lists.richmond.edu
> >> Manage your list membership and access list archives at
> >> http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l
> >>
> >> Milton-L web site: http://johnmilton.org/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Hannibal Hamlin
> >> Associate Professor of English
> >> The Ohio State University
> >> Burkhardt Fellow,
> >> The Folger Shakespeare Library
> >> 201 East Capitol Street SE
> >> Washington, DC 20003
> >> hamlin.22 at osu.edu/
> >> hamlin.hannibal at gmail.com
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Milton-L mailing list
> > Milton-L at lists.richmond.edu
> > Manage your list membership and access list archives at
> > http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l
> >
> > Milton-L web site: http://johnmilton.org/
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Hannibal Hamlin
> Associate Professor of English
> The Ohio State University
> Burkhardt Fellow,
> The Folger Shakespeare Library
> 201 East Capitol Street SE
> Washington, DC 20003
> hamlin.22 at osu.edu/
> hamlin.hannibal at gmail.com
>
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>
> <div>Matthew,</div>
> <div>=A0</div>
> <div>I'm open to correction, and I certainly did not check
> Crumb's =
> text against all available English translations. Even on a more
> cursory sca=
> n, however, it does seem too close to Alter for coincidence. The only
> signi=
> ficant alteration I noticed was the translation of "tohu
> wabohu,"=
> which Alter strikingly renders as "welter and waste," but
> which =
> Crumb doesn't.=A0Even if it is someone else's translation,
> however,=
> it is still uncredited (I'm sure Crumb didn't make his own).
> As fo=
> r the cherubim, Alter's note makes clear that these creatures,
> which ha=
> ve more ancient Canaanite roots, are non-human beasts who do not
> themselves=
> hold the sword of fire that also guards the gate. Since this is
> precisely =
> what Crumb depicts, and since every other image of the guarding
> cherubim I =
> have seen has them, in human-angel form, holding the sword, I assume
> Crumb =
> got his interpretation from Alter.</div>
>
> <div>=A0</div>
> <div>All this seems fine to me; I'm only puzzled at the lack of
> credit =
> to Alter.</div>
> <div>=A0</div>
> <div>Hannibal</div>
> <div><br><br>=A0</div>
> <div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 6/5/09, <b
> class=3D"gmail_sendername">M=
> atthew Stallard</b> <<a
> href=3D"mailto:stallard at ohio.edu">stallard at ohio.=
> edu</a>> wrote:</span>
> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
> 0px 0=
> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Hannibal,<br><br>How can
> you be =
> sure it is Alter's translation if it is "slightly
> altered"? T=
> here are, after all, a number of modern English translations. It
> might be h=
> ard to consult all of them. Also, what is so special about the
> depiction of=
> the cherubim that points exclusively and "obviously" to
> Alter=
> 9;s note as a source?<br>
> <br>Best,<br>Matthew<br><br>____________________________<br><span
> class=3D"=
> sg">Matthew Stallard, Ph.D.<br>Ohio University<br>Department of
> English<br>=
> 305 Ellis Hall<br>Athens, OH 45701<br><a onclick=3D"return
> top.js.OpenExtLi=
> nk(window,event,this)" href=3D"mailto:stallard at ohio.edu"
> target=3D"_blank">=
> stallard at ohio.edu</a></span>=20
> <div><span class=3D"e"
> id=3D"q_121b3100ea991b8a_2"><br><br><br><br>--On Fri=
> day, June 05, 2009 2:14 PM -0400 Hannibal Hamlin <<a
> onclick=3D"return t=
> op.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
> href=3D"mailto:hamlin.hannibal at gmail.=
> com" target=3D"_blank">hamlin.hannibal at gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
> 0px 0=
> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid"><br>I caught Crumb's
> bit in =
> The New Yorker too, and am interested to see the<br>whole. One thing
> that p=
> uzzled me about his drawing of Gen. 1-3 is how<br>
> relatively uninterpreted it is, especially surprising from this icon
> of<br>=
> the counter-culture. There are a few interpreted things one can point
> to<br=
> >-- it seems Adam and Eve do have sex in Eden (or at least wrestle),
> the<br=
> >
> serpent has arms and legs, and the cherubim are definitely
> non-humanoid<br>=
> (to borrow a term from sci-fi) -- but Crumb seems to be offering a
> fairly<b=
> r>straightforward illustrated Bible rather than anything along the
> lines of=
> <br>
> Paradise Lost. Crumb also seems to be using the translation of
> Robert<br>Al=
> ter (slightly altered), though there is no credit given, which
> seemed<br>od=
> d. As my wife pointed out, the representation of the cherubim
> obviously<br>
> derives from Alter's scholarly note, which makes the lack of
> credit<br>=
> especially troublesome. Maybe the error is the New Yorker's.
> =A0=A0<br>=
> Hannibal<br>=A0<br><br><br>=A0<br>On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 2:02 PM,
> <<a on=
> click=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
> href=3D"mailto:gilli=
> aca at jmu.edu" target=3D"_blank">gilliaca at jmu.edu</a>> wrote:<br>
> <br>I come again with something aslant our topic.<br><br>When I
> taught the =
> undergraduate Milton course, I would, early in our<br>reading of PL,
> bring =
> to class paintings and other illustrations of the<br>fall, to show
> how arti=
> sts have interpreted the narrative. =A0If I were<br>
> still teaching, I would be making copies of something quite
> interesting<br>=
> in the lastest [June 8 and 15] New Yorker.<br><br>In the midst of its
> annua=
> l fiction issue is an illustrated version of the<br>two creation
> stories fr=
> om Genesis - by the cartoonist B. Crumb.<br>
> <br>His muscular and solid Adam and Eve certainly fit the narrative.
> =A0He =
> will<br>publish an illustrated Genesis in the fall, and I hope to get
> a cop=
> y.<br><br>Meanwhile, enjoy this unexpected treat. I hope all of you
> are enj=
> oying a<br>
> summer of resortation!<br><br>C<br>Cynthia A. Gilliatt<br>English
> Departmen=
> t, JMU, ret.<br>JMU Safe Zones supporter<br>"You have made God
> in your=
> own image when God hates the same people you<br>hate." Fr. John
> Westo=
> n _______________________________________________<br>
> Milton-L mailing list<br><a onclick=3D"return
> top.js.OpenExtLink(window,eve=
> nt,this)" href=3D"mailto:Milton-L at lists.richmond.edu"
> target=3D"_blank">Mil=
> ton-L at lists.richmond.edu</a><br>Manage your list membership and
> access list=
> archives at<br>
> <a onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
> href=3D"http://=
> lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l"
> target=3D"_blank">http://list=
> s.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l</a><br><br>Milton-L web
> site: <a o=
> nclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
> href=3D"http://john=
> milton.org/" target=3D"_blank">http://johnmilton.org/</a><br>
> <br><br><br><br><br>--<br>Hannibal Hamlin<br>Associate Professor of
> English=
> <br>The Ohio State University<br>Burkhardt Fellow,<br>The Folger
> Shakespear=
> e Library<br>201 East Capitol Street SE<br>Washington, DC 20003<br><a
> oncli=
> ck=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
> href=3D"http://hamlin.2=
> 2 at osu.edu/" target=3D"_blank">hamlin.22 at osu.edu/</a><br>
> <a onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
> href=3D"mailto:=
> hamlin.hannibal at gmail.com"
> target=3D"_blank">hamlin.hannibal at gmail.com</a><=
> br></blockquote><br><br><br><br><br>_______________________________________=
> ________<br>
> Milton-L mailing list<br><a onclick=3D"return
> top.js.OpenExtLink(window,eve=
> nt,this)" href=3D"mailto:Milton-L at lists.richmond.edu"
> target=3D"_blank">Mil=
> ton-L at lists.richmond.edu</a><br>Manage your list membership and
> access list=
> archives at <a onclick=3D"return
> top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" hr=
> ef=3D"http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l"
> target=3D"_blank=
> ">http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l</a><br>
> <br>Milton-L web site: <a onclick=3D"return
> top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event=
> ,this)" href=3D"http://johnmilton.org/"
> target=3D"_blank">http://johnmilton=
> .org/</a><br></span></div></blockquote></div><br><br
> clear=3D"all"><br>-- <=
> br>Hannibal Hamlin<br>
> Associate Professor of English<br>The Ohio State
> University<br>Burkhardt Fe=
> llow, <br>The Folger Shakespeare Library<br>201 East Capitol Street
> SE<br>W=
> ashington, DC 20003<br><a
> href=3D"http://hamlin.22@osu.edu/">hamlin.22 at osu.=
> edu/</a><br>
> <a
> href=3D"mailto:hamlin.hannibal at gmail.com">hamlin.hannibal at gmail.com</a>=
> =20
>
> --001636c5b526f1321a046bae60e2--
>
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