[Milton-L] New to list - Epic Simile question/Paradise Lost
Carol Barton
cbartonphd1 at verizon.net
Sun Sep 28 16:33:24 EDT 2008
Re: [Milton-L] New to list - Epic Simile question/Paradise LostIt was not your reference to her Christian name. It was, and remains, the arrogance of your tone and the disrespect of your substance that is offensive. Do you think the issue of Satan's dimensions is something you personally discovered--that anyone here, having studied Milton's works for your lifetime, would benefit from revisiting? Surely, someone as intellectually gifted as you seem to think you are could have begun with something elemental--like, oh, say _The Milton Encyclopedia_, to see what other scholars had to say on the subject.
My reference to your poaching is exactly what it seems to be: objective, not "presumptuous" or "rude"--two terms entirely apropos of your own behavior, ever since you began posting to this list. You haven't even had the courtesy to thank those who have responded to your benefit. Instead, you've insulted them--and managed to offend an entire community of scholars within a couple of hours of inviting yourself into their company.
I suggest that you follow Professor Thickstun's advice, and give them the credit they--and not you--deserve.
----- Original Message -----
From: jonnyangel
To: John Milton Discussion List
Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2008 4:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Milton-L] New to list - Epic Simile question/Paradise Lost
Well, I guess I didn't realize that referring to someone by their Christian name could be construed as "adolescent, arrogant and disrespectful". And I never asked, or implied, that anyone do my research for me. I was merely appealing to those highly educated in Milton to feel free to share and discuss any thoughts or idea's they might have regarding the issue of Satan's size throughout the poem.
In the future, any "intellectual property" should be clearly stated. Otherwise, it will be assumed to be casual in nature.
As for the research, I have done plenty on this subject. I was merely trying to start a conversation/debate on the various analysis' of this particular subject.
Lastly, the university is paying my professor from the coffers of my (and other students) tuition, and your claim of "poaching" on my part is highly presumptuous and downright rude.
J
On 9/28/08 3:46 PM, "Carol Barton" <cbartonphd1 at verizon.net> wrote:
"Margie" is Professor Thickstun, and regardless of your age, your tone is adolescent, arrogant, and disrespectful. I think you owe her and the other members of this list who have "condescended" to try to help you an apology for wasting their time, and a thank you for giving you a number of shortcuts to the research a 36-year old student should be capable of doing himself.
You may not be able to understand the concept of intellectual property, but this is their livelihood, and the sole commodity for which they earn a living. If you avail yourself of their wisdom, they should be credited in your paper for having provided you with the guidance and knowledge you would have to pay other professionals (physicians, attorneys, accountants, financial advisors, etc.) handsomely to obtain. In short: your professor is being paid to teach you, and your objective should be to learn--not to poach.
Carol Barton
----- Original Message -----
From: jonnyangel <mailto:junkopardner at comcast.net>
To: John Milton Discussion List <mailto:milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2008 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Milton-L] New to list - Epic Simile question/Paradise Lost
Well Margie, if I were writing a paper on the various definitions and connotations of the word enormity then most assuredly the Milton List would be on the works cited page. But I fail to see how any student in a Milton class, undergraduate or otherwise, would be getting their research done through discussion. Following that logic, I should cite the educated derelict I gave change to once when he saw my Milton T-Shirt and started a conversation in which he gave me several references to texts I should read, and insights into Milton I hadn't seen before.
Not that it matters, but I am 36 years old and I'm taking a Milton course because I wanted to (not because I "had" to).
Milton has always been my favorite writer, since I was a child in a private Christian school where the curriculum was theologically based.
J
On 9/28/08 2:58 PM, "Margaret Thickstun" <mthickst at hamilton.edu> wrote:
Friends--I have not responded to this thread before, but I am becoming increasingly uncomfortable by the way in which generous-minded individuals on the list are doing this person's research for him. It seems to me that we cross an uncomfortable pedagogical and ethical line when the list's conversation shifts from discussing literary questions among scholars to offering guidance to other people's (undergraduate?) students. I would certainly expect the Milton list to appear in a prominent way in an acknowledgments section for this paper, even if these postings do not have the status of other secondary sources.
Well, back to grading.--Margie
gilliaca at jmu.edu wrote:
.> And why would people with knowledge of Milton
attempt to condescend to me for referring to Satan's
enormous size within the first epic simile by
nitpicking another definition of the word enormous?
instead of understanding that the way I used the
word was correct in referring to Satan being
depicted as huge, and moving on to a discussion
about the role of Satan's size in PL.
And I'm not the kind to get snotty toward people
trying to help me, but if you can't help someone,
then you probably shouldn't chime in just to nitpick
at something completely unrelated to the question
asked.
Nobody is trying to condescend to you - I meant my suggestion to consult a dictionary as practical aid.
You have gotten some very useful help from Milton scholars far more excellent than I.
Resorting to Humpty-Dumpty's lingusitic strategy in response does not further the discussion.
C
Cynthia A. Gilliatt
English Department, JMU, ret.
JMU Safe Zones supporter
"You have made God in your own image when God hates the same people you hate." Fr. John Weston
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