[Milton-L] Making Milton Matter To . . .

Tue Sep 23 16:09:50 EDT 2008

James,

Well, at least our pages are in the same book.

I'll have to think a bit more about the details of what you say,
however.  Fascinating, although discomforting in what I suppose is the
opposite direction.

As I do, I'll keep my eye on the grace that commends the whole pile.

Yours in dissimilitude, brother,

L.  
===========================
Louis Schwartz
Associate Professor of English
University of Richmond
Richmond, VA  23173
(804) 289-8315
lschwart at richmond.edu

-----Original Message-----
From: milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu
[mailto:milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu] On Behalf Of
jfleming at sfu.ca
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 3:21 PM
To: milton-l at lists.richmond.edu
Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Making Milton Matter To . . .

Louis, I think I'm saying (and thinking) that Milton matters because of
what
his work is about (his subject-matters); but that his work is about the
whole business of aboutness (or intensionality). The latter breaks down
into
certain modalities, corresponding to issues of perennial concern in
Milton's
work (and not only his): including dialectics (re: love), substratum
(re:
nature), mimesis (re: representation) and tradition (re:
interpretation). To
some extent, this becomes a definition of criticism, rather than of
Milton.
But by that token, Milton matters to criticism precisely because he
illuminates, very brightly, intensionality as a subject-matter. 

I confess just to have previewed a theoretical argument. Two more
confessions (perhaps actionable): first, I increasingly think that the
primary question for literary scholars of any stripe is what _criticism_
is
all about, not what any of its target texts are about. ("Poetry," _pace_
Frye et al., will not do as answer, precisely because poetry has a
characteristic tendency to be about things -- thereby re-presenting the
question.) Texts serve criticism, not the other way around. Second: I
tell
my students that I'm not especially interested in Milton -- but I am
extremely interested in the things that Milton is interested in. He and
I
share interests, as far as I can tell. We are both trying to make sense
of
the phenomena of understanding.

As usual, I am uncomfortable with aesthetic and/or
psychological-hedonist
claims. Best wishes, James 

On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 11:38:11 -0400 milton-l at lists.richmond.edu wrote:
> Jim,
> 
> It sounds to me like your saying two different things, but if I
> understand you correctly I think you mean them to be thought of as
> related.  One is that Milton matters because of what his work is
about.
> The other is that he matters because he is, as Gardner says, "a master
> of communicable meaning."  The emphasis, for me here would be on the
> "mastery," although I wouldn't discount the meanings themselves.  I'd
> even go so far as to say that Milton's distinction-and the root of why
> he matters-has something to do with the way the meanings, the ideas he
> offers to us, are inextricably tied to the ways in which he offers
them
> (and perhaps you're saying this too).  He seems to have valued,
enacted,
> and expressed a peculiarly intense level of complex engagement with
> particular ideas, and done so in a way that makes such engagement
> possible for others at a congruent level of intensity (or at least one
> approaching his).  What's more, these possibilities for engagement
> operate on several levels of feeling, intellect, and imagination at
once
> and at levels more intense than are possible with most (although not
> all) other texts. This is because he mastered a particular mode of
> expression-at once wanton and heedful, giddy and cunning-more fully
than
> most other writers.  And this is why he's better, say, than any number
> of others who have written about the same topics (or for that matter
> those who used the same forms).	
> 
> That's also how I'd address Gardner's concern about whether or not
this
> boils down to "It's valuable because I like it."  I do like it, no
doubt
> about that.  I'm less certain that this predilection of mine will be
> universally shared or even should be, but when it comes to that part
of
> humanity that already values certain things, for example the
heightened
> states of intellect and feeling that literature can make possible when
> its masterfully written, I think that the best way to argue for the
> value of Milton is to display (in the classroom, in conversation, and
in
> critical and scholarly essays) just exactly what his work allows us to
> do.  And I'd add that it allows these things because of certain
> objective features of its structure and because of what these features
> can be said to mean in relation to other texts and to the world.  I'm
> not making it up, in other words-I didn't write those remarkable lines
> from "L'Allegro"-they were there before me.  I'm just glad that
someone
> who was worked up about them once upon a time brought them to my
> attention in a state of remarkable excitement.	
> 
> Perhaps we're on the same page?
> 
> L. 
> 
> ===========================
> Louis Schwartz
> Associate Professor of English
> University of Richmond
> Richmond, VA	23173
> (804) 289-8315
> lschwart at richmond.edu
>	
>	
>	
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu
> [mailto:milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu] On Behalf Of
> jfleming at sfu.ca
> Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 10:37 AM
> To: milton-l at lists.richmond.edu
> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Making Milton Matter To . . .
> 
> Gardner, I'm glad my remark prompted yours. I'm afraid I don't
> understand
> "enfolded sublime." But  "figure that we occupy and that at the same
> time
> occupies us" -- that sounds like tradition, in Gadamer's sense -- and
> that,
> in my view, is indeed a key critical subject-matter, corresponding to
> the
> handing-over or handing-down (trado, tradere) of an intension. Best
> wishes,
> JDF 
> 
> On Mon, 22 Sep 2008 15:08:44 -0500 milton-l at lists.richmond.edu wrote:
> > James Dougal Fleming writes:
> >	
> > "the modalities of intensional transmission in which Milton as poet,
> > and the teacher as critic, are expert."
> >	
> >	
> > Including the modality of what Frost calls "the constant symbol,"
and
> > what Wally Kerrigan terms "the enfolded sublime," the figure that we
> > occupy and that at the same time occupies us. The semantic and the
> > existential find a happy union there. If Kerrigan is also right that
> > Milton is the master poet of the enfolded sublime, then Milton
matters
> 
> > very much as a master of communicable meaning. (I realize I'm
probably
> 
> > just mangling what James has already said, but at least it's an
> > enthusiastic mangling, and a covert invitation for him to elaborate
on
> 
> > his observation.)
> >	
> > Gardner
> >	
> > Dr. Gardner Campbell 
> > Director, Academy for Teaching and Learning 
> > Assoc. Prof. of Literature and Media, Honors College 
> > Baylor University 
> > One Bear Place, Box 97189 
> > Waco, TX 76798 
> > 254.710.3412 
> > www.gardnercampbell.net
> > 
> > ________________________________
> > 
> > From: milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu on behalf of
jfleming at sfu.ca
> > Sent: Mon 9/22/2008 2:10 PM
> > To: milton-l at lists.richmond.edu
> > Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Making Milton Matter To . . .
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Louis writes:
> > 
> > "That peculiar intensity, that
> > sense of mastery and being mastered, of being embraced and expelled,
> of
> > embracing and expelling, teaching and being taught, is the only
> argument
> > I've got.
> > 
> > Is there a better one?"
> > 
> > If there is -- and in my opinion, there is -- it has to do with the
> > subject-matters of Milton -- in other words, the ideas that his
texts
> are
> > about. The latter, moreover, are traceable not to the ethical or
> visceral
> > experience of the world, but to JDF
> > 
> > James Dougal Fleming
> > Associate Professor
> > Department of English
> > Simon Fraser University
> > 778-782-4713
> > cell: 604-290-1637
> > 
> > Nicht deines, einer Welt.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Milton-L mailing list
> > Milton-L at lists.richmond.edu
> > Manage your list membership and access list archives at
> > http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> James Dougal Fleming
> Associate Professor
> Department of English
> Simon Fraser University
> 778-782-4713
> cell: 604-290-1637
> 
> Nicht deines, einer Welt.
> _______________________________________________
> Milton-L mailing list
> Milton-L at lists.richmond.edu
> Manage your list membership and access list archives at
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> 
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> 

James Dougal Fleming
Associate Professor
Department of English
Simon Fraser University
778-782-4713
cell: 604-290-1637

Nicht deines, einer Welt.
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