[Milton-L] Knowledge, free will, etc.

[Mitchell M. Harris]

Michael (Gillum),

I don't think we're disagreeing. I would say the drawing is by means  
of special decree. If God had never decreed the ("just") punishment  
for Adam and Eve, then the earth could never have been an operative  
space in which the natural laws that govern Sin and Death could exist.  
So, yes, to Sin, this feels very much like a natural pull, but God  
decreed that this pull would be felt at the moment of humankind's  
transgression. But Sin and Death have no access to viewing it that way  
because they are not things of God.

Best,
	Mitch

On Nov 7, 2008, at 12:16 PM, Michael Gillum wrote:

> Regarding Sin’s compulsion to move toward Earth, isn’t this pretty  
> much Aristotelian physics, where things move toward their natural  
> places, just as Dante, once purified at the top of Purgatory, rises  
> spontaneously to Paradise? Like moves toward like because of a  
> “connatural force” analogous to gravity. Then, Death is moved by his  
> own hunger and the scent of prey. Regarding God’s agency (“I called  
> and drew them hither”), is this drawing by means of a special  
> decree, or is it the operation of natural law? It seems to me that,  
> insofar as he can, Milton attributes the consequences of the Fall to  
> the operation of natural law rather than to God’s particular decrees  
> of punishment.
>
> Regarding God’s wanting Satan to succeed, obviously the narrative of  
> Gen. 3 requires that PL’s Satan tempt Eve, so PL’s God must allow  
> Satan to do that. Perhaps PL’s God even wants Satan to do  that. But  
> we need to draw the line there and say that God does not want Eve to  
> eat the fruit.
>
> Michael
>
>
> On 11/7/08 12:06 PM, "Mitchell M. Harris"  
> <mitchell.harris at augie.edu> wrote:
>
>> I'd disagree, Campbell. Raphael does say it is "higher"--"Differing  
>> but in degree, of kind the same" (5.490). As for how Satan knows  
>> the tree, Jim Rovira's post is spot on.
>>
>> I also want to join Marlene and Michael in saying that God clearly  
>> compels Satan to do what he does, but I want to qualify that claim  
>> by arguing that he compels him by way of his decree regarding free  
>> will. Milton best expresses this theological idea in Christian  
>> Doctrine--specifically in the nuanced moments of his sections on  
>> God's decrees, predestination, and election, and the hardening of  
>> hearts. Satan's compelled will (which, according to Christian  
>> Doctrine, still is a free will), however, clearly does not negate  
>> that Adam and Eve's free will can remain intact so long as they  
>> obey God's command.
>>
>> I think these concepts (God's decrees, predestination, election,  
>> etc.) are expressed more cogently in Book 10 when Sin has some sort  
>> of inner feeling that compels her to leave Hell and start building  
>> the road to earth with Death:
>>
>> Methinks I feel new strength within me rise,
>> Wings growing, and dominion giv'n me large
>> Beyond this deep; whatever draws me on,
>> Or sympathy, or some connatural force
>> Powerful at greatest distance to unite
>> With secret amity things of like kind
>> By secretest conveyance. (10.243-49)
>>
>> Later, however, God reveals that it is he, in fact, who called them  
>> to this work:
>>
>> And know not that I called and drew them thither
>> My Hell-hounds, to lick up the draff and filth
>> Which man's polluting sin with taint hath shed
>> On what was pure . . . (10.629-32)
>>
>> So in this instance, Sin does not have free will, because God had  
>> decreed that on the day Adam ate of the fruit, he would sin and  
>> die. But, once again, he never decreed that Adam and Eve had to eat  
>> the fruit.
>>
>> Best,
>> Mitch Harris
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Milton-L mailing list
> Milton-L at lists.richmond.edu
> Manage your list membership and access list archives at http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l
>
> Milton-L web site: http://johnmilton.org/

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.richmond.edu/pipermail/milton-l/attachments/20081107/0fd335e5/attachment.html