[Milton-L] Knowledge, free will, etc.

Fri Nov 7 12:06:50 EST 2008

I'd disagree, Campbell. Raphael does say it is "higher"--"Differing  
but in degree, of kind the same" (5.490). As for how Satan knows the  
tree, Jim Rovira's post is spot on.

I also want to join Marlene and Michael in saying that God clearly  
compels Satan to do what he does, but I want to qualify that claim by  
arguing that he compels him by way of his decree regarding free will.  
Milton best expresses this theological idea in Christian Doctrine-- 
specifically in the nuanced moments of his sections on God's decrees,  
predestination, and election, and the hardening of hearts. Satan's  
compelled will (which, according to Christian Doctrine, still is a  
free will), however, clearly does not negate that Adam and Eve's free  
will can remain intact so long as they obey God's command.

I think these concepts (God's decrees, predestination, election, etc.)  
are expressed more cogently in Book 10 when Sin has some sort of inner  
feeling that compels her to leave Hell and start building the road to  
earth with Death:

Methinks I feel new strength within me rise,
Wings growing, and dominion giv'n me large
Beyond this deep; whatever draws me on,
Or sympathy, or some connatural force
Powerful at greatest distance to unite
With secret amity things of like kind
By secretest conveyance. (10.243-49)

Later, however, God reveals that it is he, in fact, who called them to  
this work:

And know not that I called and drew them thither
My Hell-hounds, to lick up the draff and filth
Which man's polluting sin with taint hath shed
On what was pure . . . (10.629-32)

So in this instance, Sin does not have free will, because God had  
decreed that on the day Adam ate of the fruit, he would sin and die.  
But, once again, he never decreed that Adam and Eve had to eat the  
fruit.

Best,
	Mitch Harris

Mitchell M. Harris
Assistant Professor
Department of English
Augustana College
2001 S. Summit Ave.
Sioux Falls, SD 57197
(605) 274-4699
mitchell.harris at augie.edu

"Alack, when once our grace we have forgot,
Nothing goes right . . ."
				   - William Shakespeare

On Nov 7, 2008, at 9:44 AM, Campbell, W. Gardner wrote:

> Excellent point about angelic intuition, though this power (or at  
> least its efficacy) too comes and goes in the text, perhaps because  
> Milton doesn’t want to say it’s always a “higher” power. Difficult  
> to know (either rationally or intuitively).
>
> I’d differ slightly in characterizing Satan’s understanding of the  
> tree. He understands its utility for prospect but doesn’t ask more  
> probing questions that I think Milton prompts us to ask. For  
> example, why is there a wall if I can get over it so easily? Why  
> should the tallest tree be in the center, reinforcing a definite  
> point within a garden elsewhere described as “wild above rule or  
> art”? And so forth. Satan’s curiosity narrows to a utilitarian  
> point, while Adam’s and Eve’s flourishes.
>
> Gardner
>
> From: milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu [mailto:milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu 
> ] On Behalf Of John Rumrich
> Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 9:39 AM
> To: John Milton Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] (no subject)
>
> Angels are very intelligent, Milton believes, and they tend to  
> understand phenomena intuitively, by sudden apprehension.
>
> But one might reply that Satan sits on top of the tree of life and  
> doesn't understand it at all.  Go figure.
>
> John
>
>
> On Nov 7, 2008, at 9:24 AM, James Rovira wrote:
>
>
> The book of Genesis describes the two trees standing together in the  
> middle of the garden.  The implication is that both are set apart.   
> Milton reflects this tradition in bk 4, as mentioned earlier:
>
> Thence up he flew, and on the Tree of Life,
> The middle Tree and highest there that grew,
>
> And then in book 7, the forbidden tree is clearly in the middle of  
> the garden, right next to the tree of life:
>
> This Paradise I give thee, count it thine
> To Till and keep, and of the Fruit to eate:
> Of every Tree that in the Garden growes
> Eate freely with glad heart; fear here no dearth:
> But of the Tree whose operation brings
> Knowledg of good and ill, which I have set
> The Pledge of thy Obedience and thy Faith,
> Amid the Garden by the Tree of Life,
>
> "...amid the Garden by the Tree of Life"
>
> I don't think Milton spent much time on this problem because he  
> didn't see it as a problem.  The tree of life was the largest tree,  
> planted directly in the middle of the Garden, the forbidden tree was  
> smaller, but right next to it.  Difficulties are present only if you  
> picture a normal forest with a large number of essentially identical  
> trees randomly distributed.  The Garden of Eden is enclosed by a  
> wall and has a discernible center marked by the presence of the  
> tallest tree.
>
> I think the specific details of the tree of life being the largest  
> and central tree contains a more important point -- the choice  
> between obedience and disobedience was not perfectly equal.   
> Obedience was visibly privileged.  Life is visibly privileged over  
> knowledge.
>
> Jim R
> On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 5:27 AM, christy neary <christy.neary at hotmail.com 
> > wrote:
> HELLO ALL, Still having a problem with Satan ( haven't we all ). How  
> does he know exactly which tree is the tree of interdiction? He  
> eavesdrops ( pardon the pun ) on Adam & Eve's conversation and  
> learns that it is fast by the tree of life, but this only narrows it  
> down and does not identify it specifically.
> Regards,
> Christy
>
> _______________________________________________
> Milton-L mailing list
> Milton-L at lists.richmond.edu
> Manage your list membership and access list archives at http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l
>
> Milton-L web site: http://johnmilton.org/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Milton-L mailing list
> Milton-L at lists.richmond.edu
> Manage your list membership and access list archives at http://lists.richmond.edu/mailman/listinfo/milton-l
>
> Milton-L web site: http://johnmilton.org/

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.richmond.edu/pipermail/milton-l/attachments/20081107/10153a7f/attachment.html