[Milton-L] Some Graver Subject

Tue Jun 24 19:58:46 EDT 2008

Sorry about the Freudian typo.
Alice

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Alice Crawford Berghof <aberghof at uci.edu>
> Date: June 24, 2008 4:56:31 PM PDT
> To: John Milton Discussion List <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Abdiel
>
> I am remembering that Broadbent in Some Greater Subject (page 80?) 
> said that only the fallen speak in soliloquy.  Might there be an 
> important distinction between speaking alone in soliloquy, speaking in 
> dialogue in the form of an ode, and, finally, internal monologue?  All 
> three are departures from "discourse meet" (as opposed to "discourse 
> more sweet") but the latter two can be prelapsarian or angelic.  In 
> this sense, one must distinguish among the following:
> 1. Satan's frequent soliloquies early in PL
> 2. Eve's prelapsarian ode of IX ("Great are thy virtues, doubtless, 
> best of fruits")
> 3. Adam's internal monologue ("O fairest of creation" - formulaic and 
> in this sense distinct from what ensues from the line "Bold deed thou 
> hast presumed, advent'rous Eve").
> Rather than establishing a sliding scale for fallen discourse, we 
> could establish one for prelapsarian or angelic asides and internal 
> monologues.
> Alice Berghof
>
>
> On Jun 24, 2008, at 1:40 PM, Michael Gillum wrote:
>
>> I guess Eve and Adam are "falling" rather than fallen or unfallen at 
>> the
>> time of their interior monologues-- as James Watt says, the 
>> categories have
>> a blurred zone between them. It's interesting that Adam's interior 
>> monologue
>> registering his decision is direct and certain like Abdiel's-- then 
>> his
>> following speech to Eve is more convoluted, like her interior 
>> monologue.
>>
>> Michael
>>
>>
>> On 6/24/08 4:03 PM, "Judith Herz" <jherz at alcor.concordia.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> Eve, then Adam, as each begins the process of talking themselves into
>>> falling, hence the fractured self.  One can certainly claim, as I am 
>>> in the
>>> process of doing in a related argument, that fracture is the name 
>>> (or, at
>>> least, one of the names) of the PL game.
>>> Judith Herz
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Michael Gillum" <mgillum at unca.edu>
>>> To: "milton-l" <milton-l at lists.richmond.edu>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 3:36 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Abdiel
>>>
>>>
>>>> Incidentally, I thought Coiro's review was well done except that I 
>>>> was
>>>> puzzled by this section. I wonder if there are other interior 
>>>> monologues
>>>> by
>>>> unfallen characters in the poem besides Abdiel's at 6.114.
>>>>
>>>> About Abdiel following Satan initially: Satan instructed Beelzebub 
>>>> to
>>>> "Tell
>>>> them that by command I am to haste. . . homeward. . . there to 
>>>> prepare fit
>>>> entertainment. . ." (5.685-90).  So Satan's followers thought they 
>>>> were
>>>> following God's orders. It's true that Beelzebub cast "ambiguous 
>>>> words and
>>>> jealousies" (5.703) among his orders to the sub-commanders, but no 
>>>> telling
>>>> whether these reached Abdiel.
>>>>
>>>> Michael
>>>>
>>>> On 6/24/08 2:12 PM, "Watt, James" <jwatt at butler.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks Michael:
>>>>>
>>>>> I am always amused by Miltonists who are determined to out angel 
>>>>> his
>>>>> angels.
>>>>> Here I am especially pleased to learn that Ms. Coiro believes that
>>>>> subjectivity is a mark of the Fall (especially interesting in 
>>>>> light of
>>>>> the
>>>>> high degree of subjective and interior reflection manifested by the
>>>>> Elohim).
>>>>> I wonder if gender is another mark of fallen subjectivity?  Or 
>>>>> hell, what
>>>>> about simple sex?
>>>>>
>>>>> Jim Watt
>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>> From: milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu
>>>>> [milton-l-bounces at lists.richmond.edu] On Behalf Of Michael Gillum
>>>>> [mgillum at unca.edu]
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 11:31 AM
>>>>> To: milton-l
>>>>> Subject: [Milton-L] Abdiel
>>>>>
>>>>> Not much discussion of Milton’s poetry here lately. What are 
>>>>> people’s
>>>>> reactions to these points?
>>>>>
>>>>> “Abdiel is a decidedly mixed character >> capable of an interior
>>>>> monologue, a mark of fallen subjectivity; and he is
>>>>> more zealous than brilliant in his argument with his fallen 
>>>>> general. If
>>>>> there
>>>>> is Miltonic representation here it is fractured and self-critical.”
>>>>>
>>>>> --Ann Baynes Coiro, review of Stephen Fallon’s new book in latest 
>>>>> MQ.
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>
>>
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