[Milton-L] pre-fallen knowledge of sin

[Samuel Smith]

Richard,

Bk 8.39ff makes it rather clear that Eve is present to hear Raphael's
narratives about Satan's rebellion, the war in Heaven, and the Creation
before she absents herself to do a bit of gardening when Adam shifts the
conversation to the structure of the universe.  Your point holds for both
partners.  Here, courtesy of the Milton Reading Room:

So spake our Sire, and by his count'nance seemd
Entring on studious thoughts abstruse, which Eve [ 40 ]
Perceaving where she sat retir'd in sight,
With lowliness Majestic from her seat,
And Grace that won who saw to wish her stay,
Rose, and went forth among her Fruits and Flours,
To visit how they prosper'd, bud and bloom, [ 45 ]
Her Nurserie; they at her coming sprung
And toucht by her fair tendance gladlier grew.
Yet went she not, as not with such discourse
Delighted, or not capable her eare
Of what was high: such pleasure she reserv'd, [ 50 ]
Adam relating, she sole Auditress;
Her Husband the Relater she preferr'd
Before the Angel, and of him to ask
Chose rather: hee, she knew would intermix
Grateful digressions, and solve high dispute [ 55 ]
With conjugal Caresses, from his Lip
Not Words alone pleas'd her.

Cheers,

Samuel

PS (not to Richard, but to previous postings) Regarding Faustus: Compelling
arguments have been made that Faustus does not repent because he cannot
repent; he is a reprobate living in a world governed by Calvin's God, so his
damnation has been determined before the creation of the world.  His will
has nothing to do with his "choice", certainly nothing to do with his
eternal destiny; God's sovereign will determines all.

>>> richard strier <rastrier at uchicago.edu> 07/01/08 6:18 PM >>>
QUICK RESPONSE RE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN BEFORE THE FALL:

It is simply not true that "prior to the fall, there was no 
sin to observe."  It is true that "Adam and Eve did not see 
other people sinning," but I take it that the whole point of 
Raphael's narration of the war in heaven is meant to inform 
Adam (and Eve, whether or not she hears the thing directly or 
indirectly) about what sin is, and in some detail. Many  
negative things can be and have been said about Milton's God 
(some of them by me), but that He intended to keep Adam and 
Eve ignorant of sin and Satan is not one of them.


---- Original message ----
>Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 17:15:55 -0400
>From: "James Rovira" <jamesrovira at gmail.com>  
>Subject: Re: [Milton-L] Abdiel (thought-sins)  
>To: "John Milton Discussion List" <milton-
l at lists.richmond.edu>
>
>Michael and Carol: I tried to explain these distinctions 
from my
>divorce example in my previous post, but perhaps I was 
not clear.  The
>primary distinction I see in the Genesis account is that 
prior to the
>fall, there was only one command, and all moral reasoning 
and
>principles were embodied in that command, while after the 
fall there
>were multiple commands, multiple principles, and far more 
complex
>contexts.  Furthermore, prior to the fall, there was no 
sin to observe
>-- Adam and Eve did not see other people sinning.
>
>Consider the current extent of prohibitions and relevant 
moral laws.
>Moses issued ten commandments (let's forget the entire 
ceremonial and
>civil law for the moment); Jesus internalized them 
(although there's
>an element of internalization in the Mosaic law as well, 
for example,
>do not covet); Adam and Eve only had one rule which 
served as the
>entire moral law: do not eat of the fruit of the tree of 
knowledge.
>How can there be a division between the rule of 
conscience, rule of
>reason, and rule of law when there is only one rule?
>
>As a result, I don't think it's relevant to compare 
prelapsarian Adam
>and Eve to either Jesus or my own teenage daughters  
(yes, I have
>two), and what I considered as a possibility between 
reasoned
>disobedience and blind obedience works only for Adam and 
Eve, not for
>Jesus or my teenage daughters.  Both Christ and my 
daughters have a
>history to confront, and sin to observe in the people 
around them (not
>me! --ha)  -- Adam and Eve did not -- my daughters are 
fallen (Adam
>and Eve were not yet), etc.  Now, when I say Milton may 
have been
>Christianizing Adam and Eve, he may be having them act 
and think as if
>they had this history, this knowledge, these divisions, 
etc. -- when
>really, all they had was a single prohibition.
>
>To put it more simply, if Adam and Eve were not commanded 
not to think
>about eating the fruit, not to resolve to eat the fruit, 
not to touch
>the fruit, not to discuss the fruit, etc. -- only 
commanded not to eat
>the fruit -- how can they be said to have sinned before 
they actually
>ate the fruit?  Yes, of course, mental acts precede 
physical ones, but
>mental acts have not been forbidden -as of this point-, 
only a
>physical act: eating the fruit.
>
>Christ's teachings, on the other hand, clearly forbid 
mental acts such
>as lust and hatred, and the Mosaic law forbids coveting.  
To apply
>these standards -- demands for perfect mental obedience 
as well as
>physical obedience --  to Adam and Eve is therefore to 
"Christianize"
>them.  So this leads me to my question again -- did 
Milton see a
>difference between the Christian and the unfallen Adam 
and Eve, or did
>he believe that to become a Christian was to return to 
the state Adam
>and Eve were in before the fall?  Diane posted an 
interesting
>quotation from OCD about regeneration, but it was unclear 
to me from
>that short quotation if Milton understood regeneration as 
a process or
>as something that happens instantaneously with perfect 
and complete
>results upon reception of the Holy Spirit.
>
>Jim R
>
>On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 11:02 AM, Michael Gillum &
lt;mgillum at unca.edu> wrote:
>> Jim Rovira, could you explain a bit more what you 
mean by Milton
>> Christianizing unfallen Adam and Eve? I'm not 
following.
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Richard Strier
Department of English
University of Chicago
1115 East 58th Street
Chicago, IL 60637
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